The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[J6123]

If the police thought Stride was a Ripper victim, and they believed Schwartz's statement, and they believed the Ripper wrote the graffito, then why did they continue to swear blind the killer was a Jew?

Is there a way to reconcile the taunt of "Lipski!" and the apparently antisemitic graffito in Ghoulston Street with a Jew?

Of course, Schwartz may not have been describing the Ripper, and the Ripper may not have written the graffito.

I'm confused.

[pinkmoon]

If the police thought this message was genuine then they would have waited a short while and had it photographed .

[Batman]

If the police thought Stride was a Ripper victim, and they believed Schwartz's statement, and they believed the Ripper wrote the graffito, then why did they continue to swear blind the killer was a Jew?

Is there a way to reconcile the taunt of "Lipski!" and the apparently antisemitic graffito in Ghoulston Street with a Jew?

Of course, Schwartz may not have been describing the Ripper, and the Ripper may not have written the graffito.

I'm confused.

Robert House writes that JtR could have been of Jewish origin but did both. So seems not to have a problem with it. However as you noted, it's odd.

If you actually compile the suspect list, fair complexion, not foreign looking, fills the list mostly, which is what the investigators had.

The Jewish butcher connection was based on Pizer/Leather Apron. So in the minds of the public a Jewish butcher had already set in somewhat. Despite this, gentiles, where arrested on suspicion of being JtR. There was never an order only to investigate Jews throughout the Whitechapel Murders.

Swanson didn't appear to give any indication JtR was a Jew. He only gave the name to the Macnaughten suspect.

Macnaghten listed gentiles in his potential suspects. For example, Druitt.

It is Anderson who suggested a Jew was identified as JtR. This was his 'definetly ascertained fact'.

Abberline however seemed to put an emphasis on Hutchinson's man, who he described as a Jew, for the weeks following the MJK murder, but that dried up quickly. Only later did he again suggest a Jew, Chapman, was responsible.

It seems that throughout the Whitechapel Murders, anyone was still a suspect, regardless of 'race' but that following MJK there was a focus on a Jewish district and a bit of bush beating went on which may have surfaced Kozminski.

Tumblety wasn't a Jew, but investigators where still interested in him.

Notice that Bond's 'profile' doesn't state a Jew.

In the end this Jewish connection may be nothing more than just common anti-Semitic behaviour in London England, 1888.

[GregBaron]

Blame the Immigrants...

Yeah, there’s something weird going on with the whole Jewish angle. I think if we solved the Jewish conundrum, we might solve the case. Here’s a good conspiracy theory for example.

Suppose a confederacy of gentiles wanted to start a pogrom against the Jews, get them thrown out as they were in the Pale of Settlements in Poland. They figured, we’ll kill a few streetwalkers near Jewish establishments with the hope of placing blame. We’ll rip some organs out so they’ll mistake this for those weird Jewish sacrifices we’re always hearing about. Soon riots will start, their shops and houses will be burned and they’ll get out and go somewhere else. Then maybe we can reopen our shops that were doing well until they got here. Even if it’s two guys - one can be a lookout - which helps explain the inexplicable escapes. I know it’s crazy but it’s a crazy world.

This isn’t too far removed from how I see the Charles Le Grand theory (Pipeman?) of the Wescott fellow.

Sorry if this is a thread derailer…….


Greg

[pinkmoon]

I think I quite unique when it comes to the goulston street message because I believed for years our killer wrote it I think I wanted it to be from the killer because like the dear boss letter it adds a fantastic piece of drama and mystery to this case but the reality of the matter is that our killer wrote neither.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I don't think he made the graffiti, unless he made it before the murders. The risk were way too high, especially if he was interrupted killing Strides.

The thing that bugs me with the "old graffiti" theory is the fact that jewish people living in the building would have erased it by then.

So, I believe it was recent, like same day.

Either he did it before, and planned to come back with a trophy. I don't really like this hypothesis. Makes him looks like some kind of mastermind.

OR
he saw it, was amused by it, and dropped the apron.

OR
it's a pure coincidence.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Perhaps I've misunderstood. However, the point that I was making is that, when the police were making their enquiries, if a local were asked if they'd seen the graffiti before even if they couldn't read English they would surely answer along the lines of: "Yes, there has been chalk writing on the wall for some time. However, as I don't read English I couldn't say what it actually said."

But as far as I'm aware no one actually answered in such a way.

Hi John.
Yes I did understand your point, it isn't the first time this has been asked.
The question though depends on whether the police mentioned the erased graffiti to the tenants.

There is no direct statement in official paperwork, that I recall, which indicates to us that the police believed it was written by the murderer. Though the fact the graffiti is noted several times suggests they did not dismiss it, and later in 1896 Inspr. Moore did mention this graffiti, where he added, "undoubtedly written by the murderer", whether his personal opinion or the official police position at the time is still unknown.

If the police did believe there was a connection between it and the apron, they may not have raised the subject with the tenants, which is perhaps the best reason you see no response as you suggested.

[Wickerman]

Do we have to second-guess the investigators though? It seems to me on this front that between Long and others, as reported by Swanson, they questioned people living there enough to draw the conclusion that it was likely connected to the murders and needed to be removed before starting yet another anti-Semitic riot. So they seem to have been asking the questions that they should have asked.

I thought the "searching of the premises" was done after the graffiti was washed off. I don't recall any mention of the police questioning the tenants, though I would expect they must have.
However, the questions would have been centered on whether they had heard anything suspicious, or saw or heard anyone coming or going up or down the steps, and if so at what times.
I really don't see how they can raise the issue of the graffiti and still keep its existence, and inference, a secret.

[Dane_F]

I think I quite unique when it comes to the goulston street message because I believed for years our killer wrote it I think I wanted it to be from the killer because like the dear boss letter it adds a fantastic piece of drama and mystery to this case but the reality of the matter is that our killer wrote neither.

I'm sure JTR also didn't pose Eddowes body, steal organs, and MJK must have been a figment of our imagination because those are all more fantastic pieces of drama than a simple graffiti with a bloody apron.

As Tom put it in another thread in regards to the double event it's best to assume nothing that night happened by coincidence. I believe this is sound logic to stand by.

[Jon Guy]

I believe the message was written by the killer, and is connected to the "troubles" that occurred in Hanbury Street on the day of the Chapman murder.
The very same reason that Arnold had the writing quickly removed. He did not want a repeat of the following, and probably worse:

Lloyds Weekly Sept 9th 1888
As the day advanced and the Jewish East End crowds congregated around the scene of the murder, and it`s neighbourhood became more leavened with English working men, the excitement grew; and unfortunately, owing to the rumours about the individual "Leather Apron", took a nasty turn. Bodies of young roughs raised cries against the Jews, and many of the disreputable and jabbering women sided with them. This state of things caused several stand-up fights, thus putting a further and serious strain on the police , many of whom began to express their fears of rioting.
Describing the scene in the district last night, a correspondent says; The excitement in Hanbury Street and the surrounding neighbourhood still continues, and the extra police have been employed to keep a course for the traffic of the evening, but in this they are very much hampered by noisy crowds of men and boys crying "Down with the Jews". Sometimes there is a show of resistance, but the strong force of police on the spot are equal to the occasion, and promptly separate assailants. Just as our correspondent was writing a gang of young vagabonds marched down Hanbury Street shouting "Down with the Jews!". "It was a Jew who did it!" "No Englishman did it!". After these the police were prompt, and whenever there was a stand they quickly and without ceremony, dispersed them. There have been many fights, but the police are equal to it, as men are held in reserve under cover, and when there is a row they rush out and soon establish order. As the night advances the disorderly mobs who openly express antipathy to the Jews increase, and a request has been forwarded to headquarters for extra men. This request has been promptly attended to, and men have been sent.

This is the "blame" that the GSG refers to.
The killer may have been Jewish, taunting the police and locals, or the killer may have been an anti-Semitic gentile mixing things up, hoping of a repeat of the riots.

[Abby Normal]

Robert House writes that JtR could have been of Jewish origin but did both. So seems not to have a problem with it. However as you noted, it's odd.

If you actually compile the suspect list, fair complexion, not foreign looking, fills the list mostly, which is what the investigators had.

The Jewish butcher connection was based on Pizer/Leather Apron. So in the minds of the public a Jewish butcher had already set in somewhat. Despite this, gentiles, where arrested on suspicion of being JtR. There was never an order only to investigate Jews throughout the Whitechapel Murders.

Swanson didn't appear to give any indication JtR was a Jew. He only gave the name to the Macnaughten suspect.

Macnaghten listed gentiles in his potential suspects. For example, Druitt.

It is Anderson who suggested a Jew was identified as JtR. This was his 'definetly ascertained fact'.

Abberline however seemed to put an emphasis on Hutchinson's man, who he described as a Jew, for the weeks following the MJK murder, but that dried up quickly. Only later did he again suggest a Jew, Chapman, was responsible.

It seems that throughout the Whitechapel Murders, anyone was still a suspect, regardless of 'race' but that following MJK there was a focus on a Jewish district and a bit of bush beating went on which may have surfaced Kozminski.

Tumblety wasn't a Jew, but investigators where still interested in him.

Notice that Bond's 'profile' doesn't state a Jew.

In the end this Jewish connection may be nothing more than just common anti-Semitic behaviour in London England, 1888.

Chapman wasn't jewish-he just posed as a jew a couple of times to forward his marriage scams

[Penhalion]

One thing that would shed light on this issue is knowing how common graffiti (esp. anti-Semitic) was in Whitechapel at this time. I don't have much hope that records were kept but if every other dark doorway had something written in it, then the GSG isn't that remarkable. If the graffiti was typically done in chalk, then it would be easy to wash it off on a regular basis as opposed to the spray paint of contemporary graffiti so it may not have lasted very long.

On the other hand, if graffiti was quite rare in the area, then we have to place more weight on the coincidence of the apron with that particular piece of graffiti.

Personally, I believe they are not connected but I'm interested in further research in this area.

[Batman]

One thing that would shed light on this issue is knowing how common graffiti (esp. anti-Semitic) was in Whitechapel at this time. I don't have much hope that records were kept but if every other dark doorway had something written in it, then the GSG isn't that remarkable. If the graffiti was typically done in chalk, then it would be easy to wash it off on a regular basis as opposed to the spray paint of contemporary graffiti so it may not have lasted very long.

On the other hand, if graffiti was quite rare in the area, then we have to place more weight on the coincidence of the apron with that particular piece of graffiti.

Personally, I believe they are not connected but I'm interested in further research in this area.

There is no doubt it was common and there was a lot of it. English/Yiddish against english, against Yiddish, it went on like football teams. I don't think that's in question.

However what I will say is this. Given Long's account of it being fresh, given what he said about the neighbours being questioned, given Swanson's report on it all, it would be incompetent of the investigators not to have asked the questions we are asking here. If it was common, surely they would have guessed this. It would have looked as if the apron had been fired off accidentally and hit one of many possible examples of graffiti there. However this doesn't appear to have been the interpretation of those who where there and seen it. Surely Long's beat would have revealed to him the difference between common graffiti in the area and something that stood as being fresh and likely connected. Long said, the locals would have removed it if they saw it earlier.

Can anyone demonstrate the investigators where confused over its origin? This to my knowledge has never been shown, meaning rejecting the graffiti is a modern interpretation, not a contemporary one, right?

[Penhalion]

Since the GSG was first noticed in the early morning hours, perhaps it had been done late-ish the night before so the occupants of that stairway hadn't seen it yet but still at several hours remove from the murders.

As for why the contemporary police put stock in it- they were desperate! Two women killed (and one rather horribly butchered) in one night after two previous killings made them SUPER motivated to figure it out. It wouldn't be the first time the police looked seriously at something that eventually turned out not to be connected to the crime in question.

Just off the top of my head: the Washington DC snipers. A white van was reported in the vicinity of the shootings and became an object of interest for both the police and the public. As it turned out, the white van was a random item that happened to be in the area of the shootings because there are a lot of white vans. The shooter(s) actually used a blue sedan.

[Batman]

Since the GSG was first noticed in the early morning hours, perhaps it had been done late-ish the night before so the occupants of that stairway hadn't seen it yet but still at several hours remove from the murders.

I agree but...
Long, who walked the beat believed it to be new and went as far to point out that he had not seen it there the last time he passed.

Now, just so I dont come across like withholding information, because I dislike it when facts are withheld on purpose, judging Long's powers of perception may not 100% because his version of the translation is different... But he was adament it was fresh and gives us insights into how neighbours would have behaved.

I think Long deserves credit where credit is due to give us these details. His version may very well be the one to select.