The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Wickerman]

Actually I cut and pasted it from Casebook.

But that doesn't change the question.
Where do you think they got it from?
They also published the Kelly inquest papers, in the same book

[Joshua Rogan]

What she sold is anyone's guess but I reckon she sold herself and bought some tea for herself, some needles and pins, a thimble, a second-hand apron that needed repairs, 12 pieces of rag that she could use to patch other second hand clothes etc etc

It's a nice thought, but as others have said, the market would have been closed by the time she was released, and didn't open again until early morning (Halse said that they were just beginning to set up stalls when the grafitto was wiped away, about 05:30)
The apron she was wearing when she left the station, less than an hour before she was found murdered. If you think she got another one from somewhere in that time, what happened to the one round her waist?
I suspect the sewing kit would have been de rigeur for mending her own clothes; darning her stockings & boots, patching her apron, etc. Although I'm sure she would have done the odd bit of sewing for cash now and then.
The tea and sugar were purchased from the proceeds of pawning John Kelly's boots;

"I pawned a pair of boots on Saturday morning for half a crown, out of which she bought some tea and sugar. We had some drink together, and by the time she left me for Bermondsey we had spent the 2s 6d in drink and food.... My missus pawned the boots, and I stood outside the shop with bare feet."

Since Kate still had the pawn ticket with her when she died, I've always wondered how (or even if) Kelly got some replacement boots....

[DJA]

But that doesn't change the question.
Where do you think they got it from?
They also published the Kelly inquest papers, in the same book

Must go out to the lounge room one day to see if I have a copy.

Purchased A-Z,looked up Sutton and had a laugh.

Think my next book was one of Trev's. Sorta put me off JtR books.

Purchased a couple on the Cleveland Street scandal. Similar cast,Abberline,Matthews,etc.

[Wickerman]

Why???????
link me to this "Original"!!!!!!!!!!! Because it's in every copy I've found.

Leanne.

I don't want to post the entire pages because they are copyrighted, but it is permitted to post an occasional line or two.

Here is the last few items listed, as you can see the last item is not described as "with repair".



Is there any other line you would like to see?

[Wickerman]

He was not in Mitre sq the night of the murder so the victims body sketch was not made at the time by him and is not accurate

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Correct, they were not done by Foster, but I think the sketches of the body were done by Dr. Brown.

[Wickerman]

Here we are, I knew I'd read it somewhere.

It reads:
"Position of the body when found from a sketch made on the spot
by F. Gordon Brown"



The way it is worded I am wondering if the sketches on Foster's plan were hand drawn copies of what Dr. Brown drew, or if they are Dr. Brown's sketches pasted on to Foster's plan dwg for the court.

So, what were you saying Trevor?

[Wickerman]

perhaps they were just trying to be helpful to the adopted belief that was readily accpted by the time they came to give evidence.

It should also be noted that the city police did not make statements relative to the inquest beforehand, they simply came along and gave it at the time of the inquest unlike the met who did have statements to present to the coroner in advance. Thats why Pc Long was not in possession of his pocket book he was giving his evidence off the cuff.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

That last line may not be correct.
But, let me ask you this. If the coroner decides which witnesses he needs for the inquest, how does the City coroner do that if he has no idea what the witnesses saw?

Back to that last line.
I guess you had not noticed that PC Long had his report with him?, not his pocketbook, but his report. He was consulting his report to reply to questions from the court.
So he was not giving evidence "off the cuff".

Like I mentioned to you before, the press provide more detail than the court recorder. You might make fewer errors if you consult the press versions before you post.

[APerno]

Can someone point me in the direction of a good street map for WC 1888 I would like to look up the route from Mitre Square to Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street and then back to Mitre Square via Goulston Street.

D Halse (Eddows Inquest)

"I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, . . . ."

I am curious why, when D Halse is given instructions to search the neighborhood, he chooses to move in the Middlesex Street direction and not stay in the City of London.**

I would like to see how Goulston Street fits into his traveled circle.

It is here, in his testimony that he first mentions about visiting Goulston Street at 2:20 AM, his mention seems irrelevant to the point he was currently making; out of place, as though he is laying foundation for what he is going to say further down in his testimony, (mentioning his later visit to Goulston Street and the discovery of the writing.) Likely nothing to it but I would like to see the route he took when he questioned those two men.

** I am assuming that Middlesex takes him out of the City of London district and onto Metro ground, simply because it takes him by Goulston Street, which we know is Metro territory, but I need a map that shows the City of London boundaries.

[Joshua Rogan]

Can someone point me in the direction of a good street map for WC 1888 I would like to look up the route from Mitre Square to Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street and then back to Mitre Square via Goulston Street.

D Halse (Eddows Inquest)

"I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, . . . ."

I am curious why, when D Halse is given instructions to search the neighborhood, he chooses to move in the Middlesex Street direction and not stay in the City of London.**

I would like to see how Goulston Street fits into his traveled circle.

It is here, in his testimony that he first mentions about visiting Goulston Street at 2:20 AM, his mention seems irrelevant to the point he was currently making; out of place, as though he is laying foundation for what he is going to say further down in his testimony, (mentioning his later visit to Goulston Street and the discovery of the writing.) Likely nothing to it but I would like to see the route he took when he questioned those two men.

** I am assuming that Middlesex takes him out of the City of London district and onto Metro ground, simply because it takes him by Goulston Street, which we know is Metro territory, but I need a map that shows the City of London boundaries.

Middlesex Street runs parallel with Goulston Street. The City boundary runs down the middle of it.
The map Trevor posted in #3448 shows the probable (well, shortest) route taken by Halse in green (this is also the route described by Foster at the inquest as the shortest route to the apron site).
The last action he mentions is questioning some men in Wentworth Street (which runs East from Middlesex St across the top of Goulston St) so he presumably returned then, via Goulston St.
Here is the 1893 OS scrollable map;

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoo...layers=163&b=1

[Leanne]

The market wasn't open when she left the cells, and even the stalls wouldn't have been set up at that early hour.

But she got the cloth from somewhere. maybe she knew someone, and perhaps she always carried the needles and thimble (remember she had to carry all of her posessions because she didn't have a room). Maybe she carried the rags that she'd bought on an earlier occasion, and was going to sit somewhere and mend them before reselling them, (the patch on the apron may have been her work).

Anyway I think she went to Mitre Square via Petticoat Lane and that's where she met her killer.

[Leanne]

SOMEONE WROTE:

- Chapter 11 - Sunday Morning in Petticoat Lane
SUNDAY MORNING IN PETTICOAT LANE

In and about Houndsditch shops are open and watchmakers at work, heedless of the chaff upon their screwed-up eyes shouted in at them by filthy young roughs hanging before their windows. Every now and then some one passes with a garment or hat in his hand, or a CLOTHES=BAG on his back. Phil's Buildings and Cutler Street are choked with buyers and sellers of OLD CLOTHES MALE AND FEMALE, pouring in and out of the OLD-CLOTHES EXCHANGES like very dirty bees at the entrances of very dingy hives. The atmosphere of those densely-thronged marts does not remind one of "spicy breezes [-171-] blowing soft from Ceylon's isle "-it is redolent of oleaginous malodours, of a general dusty musty, fustiness. And yet what energetic bargaining is going on over the old garments! Though some of them look fit for little else than scarecrows, how voices are raised to sea- bird screeches, what elegancies of very composite English-Cockneyese plus Irish brogue, Jewish enunciation, and a splutter of foreign gutturals - are exchanged, how arms are pump-handled and fists are clenched, in the transfer of these fallen leaves of use and fashion. Some of the chatterers look very much as if they were going to fight. Hard by in their Meeting House the Friends are sitting, silent as sleek uncooing doves. London is rich in contrasts. By the bye, do Quaker hats, coats, and breeches ever find their way into Rag Fair? And if so, who buys them to wear again?

On the other side of Houndsditch street-sellers are coming with their baskets and their harrows from the FRUIT MARKET IN DUKE'S PLACE AND MITRE STREET.

https://www.victorianlondon.org/markets/petticoatlane.htm

JOSEPH BARNETT SOLD FRUIT!

[APerno]

Middlesex Street runs parallel with Goulston Street. The City boundary runs down the middle of it.
The map Trevor posted in #3448 shows the probable (well, shortest) route taken by Halse in green (this is also the route described by Foster at the inquest as the shortest route to the apron site).
The last action he mentions is questioning some men in Wentworth Street (which runs East from Middlesex St across the top of Goulston St) so he presumably returned then, via Goulston St.
Here is the 1893 OS scrollable map;

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoo...layers=163&b=1

Thanks for the reply. Couldn't really make the Trevor map work, I needed something with legible street names. Found a map in Jack the Ripper's London, Richard Jones, that's clear enough to read street names, albeit with some names missing.

D Halse's behavior makes sense, it is not suspicious (as I hoped it would be) -- he moved northeast along Middlesex Street straddling the City's border with Metro, when he gets to Wentworth Street he encounters his two suspects.

At that point he can't stay on Wentworth Street or he will start moving west-northwest deeper into Metro territory. Petticoat Square blocks Wentworth Street making any southeast movement back into the City of London impossible, so he turns south onto Goulston Street and proceeds back to Mitre Square either by walking all the way down to Aldgate/Whitechapel High Street and then back to the Square, or he cuts back over to Middlesex Street via the small street that connects Goulston Street to Petticoat Square (unnamed on my map).

Either way he does not go out of his way to enter Goulston Street, it's his quickest way back, and it looks as though the archway in question is close to the Wentworth Street corner.

Disappointing, his behavior isn't suspicious after all, turning down Goulston Street at that point, and passing right by the graffito archway makes sense. No suspicious detours.

[Leanne]

It's a nice thought, but as others have said, the market would have been closed by the time she was released, and didn't open again until early morning

Giving her enough time to mend the apron so she could sell it.

(Halse said that they were just beginning to set up stalls when the grafitto was wiped away, about 05:30)

So she would have had about four hours to drink her tea and mend the apron.

The apron she was wearing when she left the station, less than an hour before she was found murdered. If you think she got another one from somewhere in that time, what happened to the one round her waist?

OK, she didn't necessarily get another apron, but she took it off to patch up and possibly sell, put it in her pocket to look for another customer of her body, found the wrong one...….

Since Kate still had the pawn ticket with her when she died, I've always wondered how (or even if) Kelly got some replacement boots....

Maybe he had to sell himself!!!!!!

[Trevor Marriott]

That last line may not be correct.
But, let me ask you this. If the coroner decides which witnesses he needs for the inquest, how does the City coroner do that if he has no idea what the witnesses saw?

Back to that last line.
I guess you had not noticed that PC Long had his report with him?, not his pocketbook, but his report. He was consulting his report to reply to questions from the court.
So he was not giving evidence "off the cuff".

Like I mentioned to you before, the press provide more detail than the court recorder. You might make fewer errors if you consult the press versions before you post.

You are the one who keeps posing misleading posts !

I will stick to the original signed depositions and treat the newspapers reports with caution

As an example Insp Collard in his official inquest testimony makes no mention of Dc Halse being present when the body was stripped.

In his inquest testimony as reported by the daily telegraph he also makes no mention of Dc Halse being present when the body was stripped.

Yet good old Dc Halse states he was there, and conveniently notices a piece of her apron missing, even though the Gs piece had not yet been found ! out of all the things relative to the body at that time he just happen to notice a piece of apron missing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Leanne]

Although I'm sure she would have done the odd bit of sewing for cash now and then.
The tea and sugar were purchased from the proceeds of pawning John Kelly's boots;

"I pawned a pair of boots on Saturday morning for half a crown, out of which she bought some tea and sugar. We had some drink together, and by the time she left me for Bermondsey we had spent the 2s 6d in drink and food.... My missus pawned the boots, and I stood outside the shop with bare feet."

Since Kate still had the pawn ticket with her when she died, I've always wondered how (or even if) Kelly got some replacement boots....

Perhaps she intended to buy his boots back for him, even if it meant selling her apron.