The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[perrymason]

Mike:

It sure is a puzzle and even if I, or anyone else who felt the G was an accompaniment to the apron, was "right"....so what? We can't decipher it. We won't know what it means any time soon. All it represents, bottom line, is that it may have been one extra act on the part of the Ripper, instead of the lone apron piece dropped on Goulston Street.


Later....

Hi again Howard,

If they were left together, then 2 things are apparent.....1, he didnt "authenticate" his being the killer of the Berner Street victim....as his cloth does for Kate, and 2nd, the message would likely be for Jewish peoples eyes....not the coppers.

My hunch is that someone who attended the International Club meeting lived in the Model Homes there. Goulston, as Tom W mentioned to me once, was often where new immigrant Jews congregated and where a few Socialist Marches began.

I hear you loud and clear...but I dont agree its unsolvable. Just not within a "Canon" mentality.

Cheers again HB

[Sam Flynn]

Think about that Sam...for quite some time after the events of the 30th, people in that building discussing the hoopla and not one of them coming forward and claiming to have seen it there.

There is a tendency for immigrant minorities not to court the attention of the police, How - indeed, "not making a fuss" was, sadly, one of the reasons why the Nazis got away for so long with what they did to the Jews. Besides, it's always possible that someone did mention seeing the graffiti earlier, but that we never got to hear about it.

[Howard Brown]

Sam:

I understand what you are trying to say but respectfully don't see that applicable in terms of this Case.

Jewish people ( Not certain without doublechecking whether Lawende was in Britain for a considerable period of time off the top of my head) participated as witnesses ( How else would they have gotten involved if not willingly going to the police on their own ? ) and to be frank, this whole situation of the message wasn't quite on the scale of the NSDAP and European Jewry in the 1930's....but I understand how you are trying to explain immigrant reluctance. I just think its less problematic than your example,with all due respect.

Many, if not the majority, of the MEVC were Jews ( Not sure again of how many were newly arrived Jews ) and so of course was Samuel Montagu, an MP.

More to come for sure Sam..I've gotta split. Thanks for bringing this subject up.

[JTRSickert]

Hey Howard,

I had a question. Although I, like you, believe the GSG was the handiwork of JTR, there is one question that comes to mind...

Since many of the Jews residing in Whitechapel at the time were from Russia and Eastern Europe fleeing from the pogroms there, is there any guarantee that, if the graffiti were on the wall most of the day, would any of the immigrants residing in the Wentworth Dwellings (or in Goulston Street) would have been able to read/understand it? Most of them spoke in Yiddish, Polish, or Russian. So, I think it is within the realm of possibilty that, if the graffiti were there for a number of hours, that none of the residents would've been able to read it or comprehend it's meaning (hell, even regular English speakers today aren't 100% sure what it means....LOL) Also, if the graffiti was there for a long time, I doubt there were any poor cockney English citizens in that area who cared enough to wash off some deragatory anti-semetic graffiti.

[Monty]

Michael,

Even if unheard Monty, a tree falling in the forest makes sounds

I was referring to the writing as opposed to the apron.

How,

Thats because I feel, and I could be alone on this, I don't know, that it is remarkable that no one did remember it. If it was at shoulder height as has been claimed, thats not as if it was obstructed or in an out of the way place.

It was on the jamb, a most awkward spot to read it if you were exiting the building or entering from the south. It wouldnt surprise me if the majority walked passed it, bearing in mind its size also.

Maybe I'm not reading your intent here correctly,Neil. I think the main thing here is that no one remembered it being there,period.

Im merely using your arguement but flipped over.

That condition would require that someone, anyone, remembered whether that particular space on the door jamb had something, anything on it. This condition would include those people who didn't remember something written there or definitely remembered nothing being written there....again, bolstering my side of the argument. No one did either.

What I question is this assumption that no one states the writing was not there ergo it must have been. The fact that no report indicates one way or the other that it was viewed by another party(ies) does not lead us to conclude it was certainly there...or that it was not for that matter.

Monty

[Howard Brown]

Thanks for the explanation, Neil. I understand your position buddy.

JT:

I must admit to having overlooked that possibility ( It has run through my thoughts before, but when I thought of it, I was in a subjective frame of mind and only concerned with presenting the pro-side) and to be honest, I think its a damned good point JT. Its entirely possible that the G was there and no one knew what it said in English.

If no one had been able to read it, they wouldn't have been reading the Times on the 4th ( which is what I thought of a few years back,now that I remember) where the famous 12 words were put in print.

Hmm...tough argument you leave for me to counter,JT. It figures you would be from Philly.

Neil...jump ships and help me out here..por favor.

[Sam Flynn]

I understand what you are trying to say but respectfully don't see that applicable in terms of this Case.

Jewish people participated as witnesses

The bit you put in parenthesis about Lawende may be germane, How. Whether Lawende was a long-term resident or not, he was certainly of a higher social standing than the lowly, often newly-immigrant Jews in places like WMD.

to be frank, this whole situation of the message wasn't quite on the scale of the NSDAP and European Jewry in the 1930's

True, although it strikes me that anyone coming forward claiming to know "something" about the GSG might have run the risk of being suspected as Jack the Ripper. Furthermore, the Pizer affair was still fresh in people's minds, and it might well have placed the average East End Jew in an even more cowed and cautious position than they might otherwise have been.

[Tom_Wescott]

My hunch is that someone who attended the International Club meeting lived in the Model Homes there. Goulston, as Tom W mentioned to me once, was often where new immigrant Jews congregated and where a few Socialist Marches began.

I tried posting a flyer for an 1889 march sponsored by William Wess and the IWEC, which was to commence from the Goulston Street Jewish baths. Unfortunately, I'm not nerdy enough to know how to resize the image so that the casebook will take it. I'm at work but have this on my comp, so if someone more computer literate than myself wants to PM me with their email addy, I'll send it to you to post.

Just for the record, I believe the Ripper left the apron and wrote the graffiti with the intention of taking responsibility for Stride's murder. I know it's only one interpretation among many, but I personally feel it's the strongest possibility.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Howard Brown]

You can send it to me and I will convert it into a Photobucket attachment which will not add to the site's bandwidth if you want.

Just for the record, I believe the Ripper left the apron and wrote the graffiti with the intention of taking responsibility for Stride's murder. I know it's only one interpretation among many, but I personally feel it's the strongest possibility.

If I were to try and interpret it based on probability, I would guess that the author of the G was attempting to say in his own inimitable syntax that the "Jews" ( The IWMEC club.) were the reason for Stride not being mutilated. Its not too far off from "taking responsibility for Stride's murder" and yours is related, as is my guess, to Berner Street.

If either scenario were true, I would think that the Ripper didn't go out with the intent of writing a message, but fabricated one (obviously) as a result of either an aborted mutilation in Dutfield's Yard or, as you prefer, his "taking responsibility for Stride's murder".

Without diverting the thread, it follows my perception of the Ripper being a pretty bold character who can improvise and has control of himself rather than the slithering stereotype who was out of control.

[Howard Brown]

from Tom Wescott....

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Tom, your suggestion that both murders were "claimed" as it were in that Goulston St doorway leaves the apron as a form of validation of the author without having any message in and of itself. Its only used to identify the writer.

I think the apron may symbolically be "blood on their hands" myself, and not just a signature. If he claims a murder with the apron,...a clear piece of incontrovertible evidence from that murder scene, why would he be coy when claiming the first murder...using a message that is unclear? Wouldnt he write "I done the one in Berner", or something equally as stereotypical?

Cheers

[Septic Blue]

Just for the record, I believe the Ripper left the apron and wrote the graffiti with the intention of taking responsibility for Stride's murder.

If I were to try and interpret it based on probability, I would guess that the author of the G was attempting to say in his own inimitable syntax that the "Jews" ( The IWMEC club.) were the reason for Stride not being mutilated. Its not too far off from "taking responsibility for Stride's murder" and yours is related, as is my guess, to Berner Street.

If either scenario were true, I would think that the Ripper didn't go out with the intent of writing a message, but fabricated one (obviously) as a result of either an aborted mutilation in Dutfield's Yard or, as you prefer, his "taking responsibility for Stride's murder".

I think the apron may symbolically be "blood on their hands" myself, and not just a signature.

The objective side of my brain would give Stride a 50% probability of having been a victim of 'Jack the Ripper'. However, the subjective side of my brain would bump that probability up to approximately 67% (i.e. two thirds). One reason being: I have been seduced by the 'gut-feeling' that perhaps Stride's murderer was in fact disturbed; that he was thus enraged and obsessively compelled to do something that he considered (psychotically, of course) 'sinful' – kill twice during the same 'excursion'; that he accordingly and most heartily blamed the "Juwes" for Eddowes's murder; and that he wrote …

- Click the above quotation 'field', to view the complete post in JTR Forums.com. –

"… the apron may symbolically be "blood on their hands" ..., and not just a signature."

... i.e. Eddowes's blood !!!

[Howard Brown]

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=6990

The 32nd post.....contains what Colin is referring to if the link doesn't work for you. It didn't for me and I own the damned site !

Just to clarify my speculative point, not that it matters really...when I mentioned the IWEMC being the possible reason for the subsequent graffiti, what I think might have happened just as likely or possibly more so is that someone from inside the building made an action, a noise, or it seemed to the Ripper that someone was about to exit the building.....a little more so than the Diemschutz-arriving-with-cart scenario....and thats what prevented a mutilation and influenced the G.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Monty,

The police were very much alive to what was being said and warned foreigners, and especially Jews, to keep away from the murder sites until passions had cooled.

Tully, pg 122, Chapter 5, Annie

Roy

[Howard Brown]

Dear Roy:

This information, hopefully at some point with the actual source that Mr. James Tully took this from, would support another pet peeve I have about anti-foreigner actions on the part of the British constabulary, which no one can demonstrate as being a reality.

Good of you to mention it and I saw it over on the other boards as well.