The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Sam Flynn]

Fido says no.

From The Complete Jack the Ripper A to Z page 477

" . . . apparently a reference to his story of finding a public sink, where the Ripper had just washed his bloodstained hands, shortly after the Mitre Square murder. Yet, the Major's documented movements that night make it impossible for him to have been five minutes behind the Ripper, and a few pages later [in his Memoirs] he placed the same incident shortly after the Miller court murder."

Yes. Major Smith's memoirs are patently self-aggrandising and unreliable.

[Leanne]

Fido says no.


From The Complete Jack the Ripper A to Z page 477

" . . . apparently a reference to his story of finding a public sink, where the Ripper had just washed his bloodstained hands, shortly after the Mitre Square murder. Yet, the Major's documented movements that night make it impossible for him to have been five minutes behind the Ripper, and a few pages later [in his Memoirs] he placed the same incident shortly after the Miller court murder."

Maybe he wandered from his assigned beat!!!!! (for a drink or something), and that's why he never reported it.

[Leanne]

Yes. Major Smith's memoirs are patently self-aggrandising and unreliable.

Here's the link to his memoirs:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.216560/page/n175

Use the search engine on the right to find his reference to the sink after the Miller court murder. Use the words 'Sink', Miller Court', 'Millers Court', 'Dorset Street' and see what comes up! When you find the page link it to us here please.

[Leanne]

Maybe he left the kidney somewhere in Dorset Street, then carried on with the apron via Goulston Street to prepare for the markets that he worked at. Then he hid in that entrance to avoid being questioned with the apron.

[Leanne]

HENRY SMITH
was standing in as the City Of London Police Commissioner for an absent Fraser at the time of the Mitre Square murder, which fell just inside the city. He became the Commissioner after Frasers retirement in 1890.

Please find me anything he wrote about the Miller's Court murder. I am not saying he didn't write anything, I just can't find it.
In his memoirs he was referring to the Mitre Square murder BOTH times!

[Joshua Rogan]

Here's the link to his memoirs:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.216560/page/n175

Use the search engine on the right to find his reference to the sink after the Miller court murder. Use the words 'Sink', Miller Court', 'Millers Court', 'Dorset Street' and see what comes up! When you find the page link it to us here please.

This passage from his memoirs seems (to me) to make it clear that the mention of the Dorset Street sink was in reference to the Miller's Court murder, not the Mitre Square murder;

"On three occasions - the only three of which I can give reliable details - there was no need to provide the murderer with hot water and Sunlight soap. In Berners Street he did not mutilate the woman, and probably had very few blood-stains about him ; in Mitre Square he used the woman's apron ; and in Dorset Street he carefully washed his hands at the sink."

[Leanne]

This passage from his memoirs seems (to me) to make it clear that the mention of the Dorset Street sink was in reference to the Miller's Court murder, not the Mitre Square murder;

"On three occasions - the only three of which I can give reliable details - there was no need to provide the murderer with hot water and Sunlight soap. In Berners Street he did not mutilate the woman, and probably had very few blood-stains about him ; in Mitre Square he used the woman's apron ; and in Dorset Street he carefully washed his hands at the sink."

IT WAS NOT REFERRING TO THE MILLERS COURT MURDER!

"On three occasions—the only three of which I can give reliable details—(the Nichols murder, the Chapman murder and the Stride murder), there was no need to provide the murderer with hot water and Sunlight soap. In Berners Street he did not mutilate the woman, and probably had very few blood-stains about him; in Mitre Square he used the woman's apron; and in Dorset Street he carefully washed his hands at the sink."

THE REFERENCE TO DORSET STREET WAS CONCERNING THE MITRE SQUARE MURDER! HE NEVER WROTE ANYTHING ABOUT MILLER'S COURT MURDER!

[Sam Flynn]

Like I said, Major Smith's memoirs are unreliable. He was pretty useless about the only Ripper murder committed on his own City Police territory (i.e. Eddowes), never mind the others, which were Metropolitan Police cases.

This thread is about the graffiti in Goulston Street. Can we stick to that topic, please?

[Leanne]

WE ARE STICKING TO THE TOPIC!
On both occasions Smith was referring to the killer using the piece of apron found under the Goulston Street graffito to wipe blood-stains away, after washing his hands at a sink on Dorset Street!

Did he think that Kelly's killer just had to wash his hands after his work at Miller's Court?
Why would the only thing he wrote about Mary Jane Kelly's case be the name of the street?

He said himself that he couldn't give reliable details about the 5th murder!

[Sam Flynn]

WE ARE STICKING TO THE TOPIC!
On both occasions Smith was referring to the killer using the piece of apron found under the Goulston Street graffito to wipe blood-stains away, after washing his hands at a sink on Dorset Street!

He refers to three occasions - explicitly: Berners [sic] Street; Mitre Square; Dorset Street.

Anyhow, it tells us nothing at all about the Goulston Street Graffito, so let's not divert this thread into a discussion about Major Smith's unreliable memories of Dorset Street.

[etenguy]

What do we know about the GSG - challenge any 'fact' you think is dubious.
1. It was found on the door jamb above a bloodied discarded cloth, later identified as the corner of Eddowes apron, at 2.50am.
2. It was written in 'neat, round, schoolboy hand' with about 1" letters.
3. It was freshly written - from which I think all we can deduce is less than a day or so old.
4. We don't know precisely what it said or the spelling used but most believe it to be 'The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing'
5. Whatever it said Charles Warren had it erased before it could be photographed - he said because he was concerned it might stoke unrest.

Thoughts:
It seems unlikely to me, in east London, at a time when Jews were contentious and written about alot, that someone would misspell Jews as Juwes but spell every other word correctly.

It follows then that Juwes is a deliberate word distinct in meaning from Jews.

If you think the above may be possible, could it have been a different word which the police interpreted as Juwes because they expected a 'Jew' sounding word. It would seem the writing was not as neat and clear as described, since we also have another spelling of that word from one of the police - Jeuwes.

However, if not Juwes - what? A family name perhaps, a gang name?

[Harry D]

It seems unlikely to me, in east London, at a time when Jews were contentious and written about alot, that someone would misspell Jews as Juwes but spell every other word correctly.

Disagree. People are prone to all kinds of odd misspellings. I've no doubt it's referring to the Jewish people, and the writer may have been using a dialect. Phillip Sugden's book says that Jewry Street, Aldgate was once known as ‘Pouere Juwery’ (Poor Jewry).

I'm still not convinced that the 'u' wasn't just a partially looped 'e'.

[Sam Flynn]

Juwes definitely meant Jews. It might even have been spelled "Jews", but something may have caused a glitch in the writing - like the chalk hitting a bump in the brickwork - that made the word look ambiguous. This ambiguity might explain why one officer thought it said "Juwes" and the other "Jewes".

[Sam Flynn]

3. It was freshly written - from which I think all we can deduce is less than a day or so old.

Not necessarily; I remember chalked graffiti on the wall of my school bus shelter that stayed looking fresh for weeks, if not months. I'm not saying the GSG was that ancient, of course, but it doesn't follow that its apparent freshness meant it was less than a day old.

[Harry D]

We don't know for a fact that the graffito was directly above the apron rag, do we?