The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Sam Flynn]

I think all the above illustrates is that he probably knew correct spelling and grammar.

I think it rather more indicates that he was writing on bricks, Mike - hence the staggered layout of the words.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Buddy...its very likely that when Warren sent the communique to Matthews on November 6th...5 weeks after the G was first spotted on the wall...and since he is the source for what you are arguing in your post, that Warren wrote the message in its alleged/actual 5 lines without consideration for the proper capitalization of any words found in the actual G. In other words, its very possible that the G, as we good comrades interpret it, is an interpretation of how Warren, not the author, wrote the message down in his missive to Matthews.

If I'm right, then any speculation as to the grammatical structure of the G is based solely on how Warren, casually, worded it to Matthews three days before he left office. While Warren is faithful to the wording ( Long's, one of his boys) and the second word ( Halse's version), there's no guarantee that he wrote down every word exactly as it appeared on the wall.



Pro G comment for a Sunday evening....
Funny no one in the vicinity remembered seeing that message before Long found the apron piece...which is surprising since it was available to each person who went inside the Wentworth prior to the discovery of the apron piece. With such a discovery ( the apron piece) and what it was relative to...I find it curious that no resident remembered it .

Oh wait...that must be because the building had other messages on its walls and doorjambs.

[perrymason]

I think it rather more indicates that he was writing on bricks, Mike - hence the staggered layout of the words.

Hi Sam,

That could explain the 5 lines to write one sentence, but I dont believe it addresses why he capitalized the letters in the words he did. For instance, the last 2 lines do not start with capitals, therefore he was not using capitals based on a new line being commenced.

Cheers Gareth.

[perrymason]

Mike:

Buddy...its very likely that when Warren sent the communique to Matthews on November 6th...5 weeks after the G was first spotted on the wall...and since he is the source for what you are arguing in your post, that Warren wrote the message in its alleged/actual 5 lines without consideration for the proper capitalization of any words found in the actual G. In other words, its very possible that the G, as we good comrades interpret it, is an interpretation of how Warren, not the author, wrote the message down in his missive to Matthews.

If I'm right, then any speculation as to the grammatical structure of the G is based solely on how Warren, casually, worded it to Matthews three days before he left office. While Warren is faithful to the wording ( Long's, one of his boys) and the second word ( Halse's version), there's no guarantee that he wrote down every word exactly as it appeared on the wall.



Pro G comment for a Sunday evening....
Funny no one in the vicinity remembered seeing that message before Long found the apron piece...which is surprising since it was available to each person who went inside the Wentworth prior to the discovery of the apron piece. With such a discovery ( the apron piece) and what it was relative to...I find it curious that no resident remembered it .

Oh wait...that must be because the building had other messages on its walls and doorjambs.

Hi Howard,

But he used capitals on words that did not require them logically or on words that did not begin a new line....would Warren have ad libbed capitalizing "Will" for example...or on "The men". And why would he order it in the 5 lines unless thats what he saw? Im surmising he wrote it based on his own notes.

That last paragraph is interesting...how come not one Model Home tenant saw it when they came home? In addition....from A-Z again, the PC was quoted as saying "the apron piece was not there at 2:20, he didnt notice if the writing was".

He differentiated between the 2...one was not there, one was not noticed if there.

That would suggest that if anything, the message may have predated the apron.....not that the same person couldnt have put both there....if you get my drift.

They could be put there at the same time, or the writing first then the apron...but that wouldnt preclude the same author.

What if Jack killed Liz just so he could "Blame Juwes"?Not my personal fav, but possible. Despite some opinions to the contrary, I think its most probable based on the location and the misspelling, that the author was a gentile. Which would beg the question....whats a gentile doing at the entrance to homes that were according to some almost 100% Jewish occupancy? And writing about not Blaming Jews?

All the best Howard.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

There's really only two options as to when the G appeared and who put it there.
1. Before the apron was placed there--by someone other than the killer
2. With the apron--- then by the killer

I think there's no other way to cut it.

No one, after the whole drama died down, came forward to state that they had remembered a graffiti in that location prior to the discovery of the apron. No one from within the building or no vendor who had stalls in the vicinity of the Wentworth.

The following is the part of the basic argument Tom Wescott has with Warren removing evidence I definitely agree with....in that they removed the graffiti before any or many people got a chance to say.... "Gevult ! Ist meir Mr. Halse, I saw it at 5 PM yesterday afternoon...."

That the G was taken down so quickly before people in the Wentworth could verify its existence before Long stumbled upon the apron is perhaps the biggest mistake made that morning...and even more so than not photographing it....or taking the time to have ONE person write it down for posterity without the multiple versions or spellings and the correct number of lines as it was situated on the wall... which is the second biggest mistake,in my view. No one needed to photograph it for that to have gone down.

I don't know Mike...I've written things down before in the last 55 years and capitalized words that "shouldn't be" capitalized. For the sake of argument, its probably up to me to prove that Warren capitalized words that "shouldn't have been" capitalized and we both know I can't.

I think that the killer was of native born heritage and no big deal for him to disparage the "other". If I felt the killer was of foreign origin or in this case definitely Jewish, then I'd think it somewhat strange that the G was placed there or anywhere at all with that wording...but accept that killers are krazy and a self disparaging message isn't the kraziest thing thats come down the pike I've ever heard of.

Later...

[perrymason]

Hi Howard,

I know suggesting that the killer wrote the GSG and then later left the apron there was a stretch...so dont go thinkin Ive finally lost it for good. Sam will undoubtedly have at that one....

I think you speak very logically and rationally without undue emphasis on this issue...because we will never truly know how the message looked.....but I do think a rational explanation for them appearing to the Constable at the same time despite his previous pass in which he says only the apron "wasnt there"....is that they arrived at the same time.

For that to be true it could be one man leaving the cloth and writing the message, or one man leaving the cloth and another man writing the message when the cloth is being left. In that scenario Id obviously favor one man doing both, as Im fairly sure would you and Sam.

The issue isnt really with the spelling...or the grammar...or the location ...its when it got there.

i believe the Constable clearly states the apron was not there at 2:20am. So we can safely buy into it being left sometime between 2:22 or :23am, to around 2:50am. That in and of itself provides the apron with significance it didnt have if it had been hastily dropped on his way home from Mitre....leaving a bread crumb trail as it were back to where they thought he likely lived.

If he took it there on purpose....then the writing has to be considered linked with it I believe. Purposeful placement is in and out itself a message....so why would a written postscript be out of place?

My best as always HB

[Howard Brown]

The issue isnt really with the spelling...or the grammar...or the location ...its when it got there.---P.Mason

Can't find fault with that Mike and to conclude my end of our repartee, its frustrating that neither verbal affirimation of its existence by a tenement dweller or vendor was recorded and that no one person ( even the City surveyor, Foster, wrote the G down with the word "To" capitalized, which Warren did not capitalize and Foster certainly was present at the scene as well..) can be counted on for any exactitude. Personally, I have no problem accepting Foster's "account" of the G over Warren's...since Foster worked within a field of exactitude...but that would require me to discount Warren's views as being unexact, when of course...again...I can't.

Its enough to make you want to pull your teeth out....but I guess thats why we're in this to the degree we are Mike.

We don't have any teeth left to pull....

[Monty]

i believe the Constable clearly states the apron was not there at 2:20am.

Halse passes the same spot at around the same time. He states "At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron"

Other interesting snippets of halses statement include....

As to the premises being searched, I have in court members of the City police who did make diligent search in every part of the tenements the moment the matter came to their knowledge. But unfortunately it did not come to their knowledge until two hours after. There was thus delay, and the man who discovered the piece of apron is a member of the Metropolitan police.

So there is a two hour delay in interviewing the Tenants. Two hours in which potential witnesses/graffiti artists could leave the premises via alternate routes. And people were moving as Halse later states....

I proceeded to Goulston-street, where I saw some chalk-writing on the black facia of the wall. Instructions were given to have the writing photographed, but before it could be done the Metropolitan police stated that they thought the writing might cause a riot or outbreak against the Jews, and it was decided to have it rubbed out, as the people were already bringing out their stalls into the street.

This gives one a look into Arnolds though process. People begining to stir, the Jewish attacks just after the previous (Chapman) crime, his call would had to have been rapid.

Monty

[Howard Brown]

So there is a two hour delay in interviewing the Tenants. Two hours in which potential witnesses/graffiti artists could leave the premises via alternate routes. And people were moving as Halse later states....

Neil....was there a rear door on the Wentworth in 1888? I don't think there was a backyard or was there?

[Howard Brown]

Neil:

Sorry to have to write a follow up to the previous...some of what you mentioned is, of course, fairly well digested and previously known to each of us and others as well and thanks for mentioning it, old trooper. A few add on's to the other post:

1. So...Arnold is that concerned with a random graffiti when the vendors were setting up.... the same message that he then says later on was blurred ? Its as if he sensed a dread at the time of the vendors setting up their stalls....but then afterwards, dismissing his own actions because the message was irrelevant in the first place. This never made sense to me Neil...unless there's a reason for this flip flop.

2. As to your "alternate routes".... The door in the front of the building which we are all familiar with leads to the basement,correct? Why in the heck would anyone take that "route" out of the building since its almost a certainty no one who lived there wrote the message? Why wouldn't they proceed as they normally would and exit the building from down the stairs and out the front onto Goulston Street...unless the front was "cordoned" off by Met police ? I'm not being a wise guy, Neil, but what sort of alternate route could you possibly mean since the route out of the building could be none other than down the stairway?

[Monty]

Alternative Routes

How,

Im at work and will address your other issues later.

However Re the exits. Below are 2 images.

1) 1890 Goads showing no exits whatsoever.

3) 1976 photo showing the front of the dwellings - this photos was located by John Bennett. It shows exits of sorts though I feel they lead from the basement as opposed the rest of the dwelling.

Both Rob Clack and I had ventured down the rear of the Dwellings and I can say that there was a bricked up entrance, along with windows.

Im sure Rob will be able to confirm.

Back later

Monty

[Monty]

As an add on....

..below is another shot of the dwellings in 1976. This time the front.

Note the entrance to the basement (at the front of the building) is surrounding by railings? If this was the state of the dwellings in 1888 it could explain why Halse walked by the apron, and means Long would have had to walk up to the stairwell to view that it was empty at 2.20am, as opposed to glancing in as he passed along the street.

Monty

[perrymason]

Halse passes the same spot at around the same time. He states "At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron"

Monty

Hi Monty,

Thats true of Halse, but not of Long...the constable actually assigned the beat that night that included Goulston Street , whom I was quoting. He stated that on his earlier pass "the apron was not there",..but he could not say for certain whether the writing was.

Im not addressing the bulk of your post, just that section.

If it was not there until after 2:20am and left before 2:55am, its nearly impossible to make a realistic case for it being casually discarded as he leaves Mitre Square heading towards his home. He left Mitre Square, according to Watkin's times, between 12:42 and 12:43am.

Cheers mates

[Howard Brown]

Neil:

Thanks buddy...for both of these photos.

Here's a photo that Rob shared with us over on JTRForums...look at what Meester Clack wrote at the top.



Now,unless I am very mistaken, the railing doesn't appear to be in front of where Rob states it is at the top of this photograph. Obviously, you know Goulston Street better than I, but do you see what I am referring to? Isn't what Rob is referring to the entrance between the two Ralph Swimer storefronts?

It might just be that Goad's blueprint which has no exit is more applicable...I don't know...since it has no visible exits and as Rob said here years ago, no backyard shown at that time.

What do you think?

Perplexed in Philadelphia

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Monty,

Thats true of Halse, but not of Long...the constable actually assigned the beat that night that included Goulston Street

Being asked to pound a beat and being asked to peer into every nook and cranny en route aren't the same, Mike. There's no reason why Long should have automatically looked into that doorway, and it's hardly remarkable that he missed a discarded piece of rag the first time round. He was a police officer, after all, not a litter-warden.