The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Sam Flynn]

It was only a short passageway. If the piece of cloth lay on the floor four feet down but three feet - horizontally - away from the graffito, then the two would still be close together in the scheme of things. There is nothing in the evidence that states that the writing was directly above the apron.

[etenguy]

It was only a short passageway. If the piece of cloth lay on the floor four feet down but three feet - horizontally - away from the graffito, then the two would still be close together in the scheme of things. There is nothing in the evidence that states that the writing was directly above the apron.

Whether the apron was directly under the GSG or a little to one side or other of it is not important. The police there at the time thought the juxtaposition of the apron and GSG suggested a connection or they would not have behaved as they did. That is the best contemporary evidence we have and convinces me that the possibility of a connection is real.

[c.d.]

I certainly don't discount the fact that the police at the time thought the GSG came from the killer but you have to wonder how objective they were in making that decision since they were desperate for any time of clue at that point in their investigation.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Quite so, CD. The removal of the graffito can be seen, not so much as an acknowledgement on the part of the police that it was written by the killer, but as an attempt to prevent people from making such a connection, whether it was written by the killer or not.

[etenguy]

I certainly don't discount the fact that the police at the time thought the GSG came from the killer but you have to wonder how objective they were in making that decision since they were desperate for any time of clue at that point in their investigation.

c.d.

You are of course correct, they may very well have been so intent on finding any type of clue, their objectivity was compromised.

As has been stated many times on this board, anti Jewish graffiti was not uncommon in the area. I think there were two reasons the police thought the apron and GSG were connected.
1. Proximity of the apron to the writing
2. The words used in the GSG. I think 'blamed' caught their attention and the unusual nature of the message. If the message had read 'Jews go home' or a more colourful version of 'Jews are horrible', they would have ignored it. They would have been familiar with the usual graffiti in the area and if this message read like a normal piece of graffiti, I don't think it would have caught their attention.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are of course correct, they may very well have been so intent on finding any type of clue, their objectivity was compromised.

As has been stated many times on this board, anti Jewish graffiti was not uncommon in the area. I think there were two reasons the police thought the apron and GSG were connected.
1. Proximity of the apron to the writing
2. The words used in the GSG. I think 'blamed' caught their attention and the unusual nature of the message. If the message had read 'Jews go home' or a more colourful version of 'Jews are horrible', they would have ignored it. They would have been familiar with the usual graffiti in the area and if this message read like a normal piece of graffiti, I don't think it would have caught their attention.

Your point 2. is one of the reasons that ive leaned toward the message being written by Jack (although nowhere near ‘mind made up.’) Graffiti tends to be very much ‘to the point.’ The writer wants his message to be immediately understood as they usually see it in passing. Vague, enigmatic ones risk being misunderstood or even ignored.

[etenguy]

Quite so, CD. The removal of the graffito can be seen, not so much as an acknowledgement on the part of the police that it was written by the killer, but as an attempt to prevent people from making such a connection, whether it was written by the killer or not.

Hi Sam.

I believe that was the reason given. But even that action implies there were reasons people might make such a connection. Also, that wasn't the sole action, they had called for a photographer, they had written the message in notebooks. It does not tell us the killer wrote the message, but it does tell us the police considered it a serious possibility.

[Varqm]

Yes if it was him or not who wrote it can never be proven/disproven.Long was not in a position to see if the graffito was there when he checked at 2:20 AM.,it could have been there.Even Halse was theorizing.

"Why do you say that it seemed to have been recently written?

Halse: It looked fresh, and if it had been done long before it would have been rubbed out by the people passing. I did not notice whether there was any powdered chalk on the ground..."

Which tells us by the time of Halse's testimony the police was still theorizing.
Warren too at 5:30 am.before the graffito was erased.He was more right in erasing it because what if a riot occurred,put the Met police in harms way, and later on an innocent writer admits it,it would have been bad.I believe the reason to be post # 2664,worthy enough IMO for the ripper to do anything other than killing and getting away with it. But any reasonable guess is just as good.



-

[Varqm]

And in any case if the writer was innocent,his/her graffito was totally useless to the case and had no need to report at all.



-

[etenguy]

Even Halse was theorizing.

"Why do you say that it seemed to have been recently written?

Halse: It looked fresh, and if it had been done long before it would have been rubbed out by the people passing. I did not notice whether there was any powdered chalk on the ground..."

Which tells us by the time of Halse's testimony the police was still theorizing.
-

I didn't think this was an example of the police generally theorising about who wrote the GSG. I took this simply as Halse trying to answer the question he was asked and explaining why he had concluded that the GSG had been freshly written. It gives us an opportunity now to decide whether his explanation is compelling.

[cnr]

The removal of the graffito can be seen, not so much as an acknowledgement on the part of the police that it was written by the killer, but as an attempt to prevent people from making such a connection, whether it was written by the killer or not.

...the police considered it a serious possibility.

Hi Sam and etenguy.

...the police (including top cop, Warren) did believe the killer wrote the message, or as Inspector Moore said, it was "undoubtedly by the murderer".

As I've elaborated on these boards before (and elsewhere), the active term of the graffito was that of 'blame', and the subject, 'the Jews' (sp). In doing so, the graffito unlocks a moment in time and place: East End street sentiment was such, that the murders were already being blamed on the Jews. The social temperature was fever-pitched.

Note, for example, the anti-Jewish riot post-Chapman and the chants of "no Englishman" and "down with the Jews".

Even before the double-event, the newspapers had been tip-toeing around the issue of Jewish "blood guiltiness"*, trying to report such racist street talk and popular sentiment as conscientiously as possible - despite the ever increasing likelihood that the blood libel would burst onto the pages of the newspapers fully-fledged, as indeed it did.

They may well have rubbed it out successfully, but IMHO the graffito remains testament to Whitechapel and 1888.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

* to quote from one such report, ie the Star, 11 September 1888, quoted in both editions of my book, 2017 and 2018.

[etenguy]

Hi Sam and etenguy.

...the police (including top cop, Warren) did believe the killer wrote the message, or as Inspector Moore said, it was "undoubtedly by the murderer".

I, too, believe that the police considered the GSG written by the murderer, or at least believed there was a strong probability he had written it. This is borne out in their actions - and as you have quoted - some of their statements.

As I've elaborated on these boards before (and elsewhere), the active term of the graffito was that of 'blame', and the subject, 'the Jews' (sp). In doing so, the graffito unlocks a moment in time and place: East End street sentiment was such, that the murders were already being blamed on the Jews. The social temperature was fever-pitched.

Note, for example, the anti-Jewish riot post-Chapman and the chants of "no Englishman" and "down with the Jews".

Even before the double-event, the newspapers had been tip-toeing around the issue of Jewish "blood guiltiness"*, trying to report such racist street talk and popular sentiment as conscientiously as possible - despite the ever increasing likelihood that the blood libel would burst onto the pages of the newspapers fully-fledged, as indeed it did.

They may well have rubbed it out successfully, but IMHO the graffito remains testament to Whitechapel and 1888.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

* to quote from one such report, ie the Star, 11 September 1888, quoted in both editions of my book, 2017 and 2018.

I read the article you linked (good article by the way) but it did not convince me that the main motivation of the Ripper was to stop Jewish immigration. Though some good points made. However, I have not read your book, yet, and so withhold coming to any conclusions.

Certainly, in the context of the times, these murders would have stoked the anti immigration sentiment. We only have to look at the Brexit situation to get a real sense of the hostility immigrants in the UK face from certain groups of people and how blame attaches to them for a range of ills, almost automatically. The press continue to this day to act as bellows wherever they sniff the scent of a spark.

So the fact that the Jewish community came under fire during the Whitechapel murders is uncontested, but I wonder if this was simply an inevitable consequence of the situation in Whitechapel rather than the murderer having a political motivation. I guess I'll have to read the book to get a better understanding of your reasoning.

[cnr]

We only have to look at the Brexit situation to get a real sense of the hostility immigrants in the UK face from certain groups of people and how blame attaches to them for a range of ills, almost automatically. The press continue to this day to act as bellows wherever they sniff the scent of a spark.

Hi etenguy,

The excellent parallel you draw (above), actually came up during our Ripper Podcast discussion last night. I am reminded of that old French proverb: plus ça change, et plus c'est la même chose - the more things change, and the more they stay the same.

More generally you make some good points about the socio-political dynamics at play which I, personally, have found hard to turn away from. Certainly, I was very happy to be given the chance by Jonathan and his esteemed panel to talk a bit about those issues.

Stephen

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/tweed-daily-news/20180414/281694025363295

[etenguy]

...actually came up during our Ripper Podcast discussion last night.

I was delighted to see that the makers of the podcast have a time machine, which is just what we need to solve these crimes.

Or is it simply confusion between the US and UK format of stating the date, where the 12th May becomes the 5th December.

[Sam Flynn]

Or is it simply confusion between the US and UK format of stating the date, where the 12th May becomes the 5th December.

That reminds me - I found this podcast a remarkable experience, with participants in four (or five) countries spanning three continents... and about as wide a range of time-zones as one could imagine