The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Tom_Wescott]

Mobs: Contrary to Monty's interpretation of my words, I'm fully aware of the existence of mobs, then and now. My point was that Warren's job was to preserve both evidence and the peace. He chose to preserve only one in this case, and I consider that a serious error. Is Howard Brown the only person who agrees with me?

The Graffiti: Do I think the Ripper wrote it? Yes. So did the police.

Warren's resignation: I say Warren was 'fired', because he was. Official's are never technically 'fired', they're given the option to resign, which they inevitably take. Warren was not let go for any one reason, but one of the top reasons was his poor action regarding the graffiti. This is made evident by the re-investigation into his actions in the days before his resignation.

Anti-Semitism: We live in an age where we've gone over-the-top with political correctness. We must remember that the men of 1888 were not so burdened with white guilt as we are today. They could speak and act more freely. Just as we do not live in the sexually repressed world they did. It's not fair of us to project our own misplaced guilt onto them and proclaim them 'racist' or 'anti-Semitic'. They were politically open and sexually repressed. We're politically repressed and sexually open. Strange how people are such creatures of extremes, but there ya go.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

Monty, I agree with your point 100%. Already, there was prejudice against Jews in the neighborhood and the murders excaberated it. There was a riot against the Jews over the murders. It happened after the Chapman murder and the Met police moved in to stop it. And police officers posted at crime scenes advised Jews to move along and not linger lest they become targets of abuse. These incidents are documented in Sugden's book.

Warren, seeing the writing with the word Jews, in the heart of the Jewish district, at the doorway where Kate Eddowe's apron piece was dropped, made a decision on the spot. Erase it. A wise decision in my opinion and in line with police actions taken to diffuse tension and keep the peace.

Then there's the shout of Lipski, the account of which never saw the light of day at inquest.

The murder spree was a real life situation with real people. In a multi-ethnic cauldron of fear, rumors, accusations and innuendo. Not a game of clue for our benefit.

Roy

[smezenen]

It was Dr. Brown, rather than Dr. Phillips, who made those observations about the supposed knowledge of the placement of organs within the abdominal cavity.

Ben,
I stand corrected Sir. It would seem that in my hate to finish my posts all in one break period from work I attributed that quote to the wrong doctor. thank you for pointing it out.

here is the statement by Doctor Philips that I meant to quote. It is from inquest testimony on Annie Chapman not Catherine Eddows post mortem, which I once again mistakenly indicated in my previouse post.


Dr. Phillips: Very well. I will give you the results of my post-mortem examination. Witness then detailed the terrible wounds which had been inflicted upon the woman, and described the parts of the body which the perpetrator of the murder had carried away with him. He added: I am of opinion that the length of the weapon with which the incisions were inflicted was at least five to six inches in length - probably more - and must have been very sharp. The manner in which they had been done indicated a certain amount of anatomical knowledge.

If Dr. phillips stated at any other time that the killer had no anatomical knowledge it would seem that he contradicted himself or changed his mind.

[Tom_Wescott]

Dr. Phillips was only comfortable attributing Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly to the Ripper with assurety, leaving Stride and Eddowes as only possibilities.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Tom,

I would think Warren was let go because of the murders, the big picture overall. With the grafitto just used as a prop in that. And I agree, we shouldn't apply modern standards to back then. In fact, that's my point.

Roy

[Monty]

Roy,

I must admit, these incident you mention have bypassed my recall.

Monty

[Roy Corduroy]

Mont, I'll be quoting chapter and verse later tonight. (your time) -- Roy

[Monty]

Tom,

Contrary? This from the guy who has u-turned from ficticous mobs to admitting there were mobs.

And there is only one comment, made by an individual, that states a belief that the killer wrote it. This some 8 years after the event and one of the final entries in the file.

Monty

[Howard Brown]

Mobs: Contrary to Monty's interpretation of my words, I'm fully aware of the existence of mobs, then and now. My point was that Warren's job was to preserve both evidence and the peace. He chose to preserve only one in this case, and I consider that a serious error. Is Howard Brown the only person who agrees with me?

Again, in my view, Warren was the type of man to employ preventive medicine and looked at the "long view' of issues such as the G and whether or not to let it remain. His decision to remove the G was his longview assessment on the spot of the potential problems between the local Jewish population and native East Enders and the 'evidence', the message, was taken care of by the fact that it was copied down. There's really no way, even if the graffiti/message was photographed ,that it could have been compared to some non-chalk writing....whether or not Warren considered that at all in the first place. So, in summation, I feel Warren did keep the peace and along with Halse and Long, who jotted down the G in their notepads, had the message copied for any future reference should it be needed and therefore preserving the necessary element, the message content, of the evidence. Both birds killed with one stone....to some people's chagrin obviously and to others in one fell swoop.
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The Graffiti: Do I think the Ripper wrote it? Yes. So did the police.

I agree that some of the police viewed it as legitimate as I do now. Not that it matters what I "think".
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Warren's resignation: I say Warren was 'fired', because he was. Official's are never technically 'fired', they're given the option to resign, which they inevitably take. Warren was not let go for any one reason, but one of the top reasons was his poor action regarding the graffiti. This is made evident by the re-investigation into his actions in the days before his resignation. -Tom Wescott
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I would suggest any interested persons read page 31 from SPE/DR's Scotland Yard Investigates, which discusses Warren's pattern of insisting upon his own way. In addition, I'd like to point out the fact that 8 months before Warren resigned ( not fired ) he offered his resignation . This may be found for the interested on page 57 of SPE's work. Warren had never intended, according to the text, to remain as Police Commissioner, only considering it a temporary role. Furthermore, Warren was persuaded not to resign in March of 1888...before Emma Smith had been murdered, indicating that Warren had wanted to leave the nest prior to the first murder in East London of that fateful year.

As to officials never resigning without prior notification, thats simply an overexaggeration. Budd Dwyer blew his brains out ( A former Pa. official) on television in the late 1970's without prior notification of his "resignation". Many officials resign, such as commissioners, sheriffs, and other law enforcement personnel.

I leave the reader to draw their conclusion as to whether Warren resigned on his own... or was fired and then allowed to look as if he resigned.--How Brown
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Anti-Semitism: We live in an age where we've gone over-the-top with political correctness. We must remember that the men of 1888 were not so burdened with white guilt as we are today. They could speak and act more freely. Just as we do not live in the sexually repressed world they did. It's not fair of us to project our own misplaced guilt onto them and proclaim them 'racist' or 'anti-Semitic'. They were politically open and sexually repressed. We're politically repressed and sexually open. Strange how people are such creatures of extremes, but there ya go. --Tom Wescott
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Irrespective of our current phony political correct crowd of which I am in 100 percent agreement as being facetitious frauds, the question that I have been asking people over and over is to produce one example of anti-foreigner activity by the police during a time when people would and could freely disparage the Jewish people, the Portugese ( Larkins) and others such as the Irish ... and no one can. There's really no need to make comparisons between the age when anything went and this age where everything blows.--How Brown

[Roy Corduroy]

Howard I e-mailed you. Please reply.

Monty, I was referring to the ELO Sept 15, "Riot against the Jews" And I think there is a sketch drawing of that ruckus with a policeman right in the middle of it either in a book or on a website. The quote of police advising Jews to keep moving, I am still searching.

Roy

[Howard Brown]

Roy:

I received it pardner...

Let me investigate that issue once more.

HB

[Monty]

Roy,

Howard I e-mailed you. Please reply.

Monty, I was referring to the ELO Sept 15, "Riot against the Jews" And I think there is a sketch drawing of that ruckus with a policeman right in the middle of it either in a book or on a website. The quote of police advising Jews to keep moving, I am still searching.

Roy

Many thanks. Now this is interesting, as the man who escorted Catherine Eddowes from her cell, PC George Hutt, wrote this to the Evening News five days prior to the article you mention.

Evening News
London, U.K.
11 September 1888

THE EDITOR'S DRAW.
SLAUGHTERING THE JEWS.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE "EVENING NEWS."


SIR - with reference to the above heading, on Saturday, evening last, I found it difficult to traverse the streets in the vicinity of the Whitechapel, without observing in almost every thoroughfare , knots of persons (consisting of men, women and children), and overhearing their slanderous and insulting remarks towards the Jews, who occasionally passed by. With justice to my countrymen, I mention that the foul epithets was made use of by people of the most ignorant and dangerous class, promoted by the information they had casually obtained that a man known as "Leather Apron" had a Jewish appearance, and was wanted for the recent Whitechapel murders. Even were it the case that the actual perpetrator belonged to the Hebrew class, is it not cowardly and unjust that in the extreme to calumniate a sect for the sins of one? Spotless indeed would be the flock entirely minus of black sheep. The Jew predominates in the neighbourhood where I am and have been residing for years, but notwithstanding the crimes committed by the members of our so- called Christian race average at least 99 per cent, in excess of those imputed by the Jews. Therefore if there were base enough to take a mean advantage of this knowledge, and impugn and molest every respectable Christian pedestrian they chanced to meet, no doubt riot and disorder would be the result daily. "Hard words break no bones," but often they lead to that end. The Jew is certainly no coward when on the defensive and if such conduct as I personally witnessed on Saturday last is not suppressed, the consequences may be serious indeed. My knowledge of the Jews impresses me with the belief that they are a persevering, thrifty and generous race. Clannish they may be, and it is a pity there is not more of such brotherly feeling existing among Christians; again, seldom have I seen a subscription list opened for the benefit of a deserving Christian that has not been contributed to by the Jews. Those who forget themselves so far as to insult them in the manner I have stated should put the query to each other, "What would our Christian labour market be (especially in this district) without the industry introduced by the Hebrew race? If your space will admit of giving publicity to the remarks made from a lover of fair play, it may be the means of deterring the self-imagined, pure-minded Christian, in abusing the people I have mentioned, and also teach him to endeavour "to pick the mote from his own eye," instead of molesting a harmless and industrious fraternity. I am, &e.,

48 and 49, Bishopsgate-street, Without, G. H. H.
September 10.

Cheers
Monty

[Howard Brown]

Neil

You covered Hutt and that very letter in your excellent article in June's Ripperologist, issue 103... Were you trying to present that letter as an example of an anti-Semitic sentiment by a policeman or just kindly providing it for those who haven't read it? By the way,thanks for the lowdown on Holt elsewhere...I should have read a little more on that last night when I had the chance.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,

Contrary? This from the guy who has u-turned from ficticous mobs to admitting there were mobs.

Obviously, you're trying to get my ire up, and it's not gonna work. I said the mob in Goulston Street was fictitious. Do you have a record of the graffiti starting a mob there? Hmm?

And there is only one comment, made by an individual, that states a belief that the killer wrote it. This some 8 years after the event and one of the final entries in the file.

Only one? 8 years later? You're getting rusty, old man.

Howard,

I apologize for misrepresenting your views. Something I read (or misread) in an earlier post on this thread led me to believe that, like me, you took issue with Warren not allowing the graffiti to be photographed. I stand by my reasoning that the writing was valuable evidence that should have been preserved photographically, but I understand your reasoning to the contrary.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

How,

I placed Hutts letter in the article to show his christian values. And also his contradictions. Seeing as he was sacked for assaulting a prisoner in the dock.

Monty