The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Sam Flynn]

Let me tell you there are people who have been here since time immemorial who still dont know what they are talking about.

That's very honest and commendable of you, Trevor.

[harry]

Now some of you may think,that the AtoZ is inferior to your sources,but it is also,as far as I know the only source that claims Long asked for,and was given,permission to read from his notebook.He made notes at some time,so was not entirely speaking from memory.He would have refreshed his memory,so I Have no doubt whatsoever that when he replied to the juror he had no knowledge of the Eddowes murder when finding the cloth,He was speaking the truth.
So,it was not Long,nor evidence of a crime,that sent everyone who did so,scurrying to Goulsten Street that morning,but Long's entry in his notebook of the writing on the wall.Why,if it at the time,Long could find no evidence of a crime,did the writing arouse his interest,and that of others.

[Joshua Rogan]

Now some of you may think,that the AtoZ is inferior to your sources,but it is also,as far as I know the only source that claims Long asked for,and was given,permission to read from his notebook.He made notes at some time,so was not entirely speaking from memory.He would have refreshed his memory,so I Have no doubt whatsoever that when he replied to the juror he had no knowledge of the Eddowes murder when finding the cloth,He was speaking the truth.
So,it was not Long,nor evidence of a crime,that sent everyone who did so,scurrying to Goulsten Street that morning,but Long's entry in his notebook of the writing on the wall.Why,if it at the time,Long could find no evidence of a crime,did the writing arouse his interest,and that of others.

I'm not sure where the A to Z gets it's info, but it's pretty clear from the press reports that Long said he had heard of the murder.

Times;
"Before proceeding to the station he had heard that a murder had been committed in Mitre-square"

Morning Advertiser;
"I had heard before proceeding to the station that a murder had been committed in Mitre square"

Daily Telegraph;
"Before going did you hear that a murder had been committed? - Yes.
It is common knowledge that two murders have been perpetrated. Which did you hear of? - I heard of the murder in the City. There were rumours of another, but not certain."

Daily News;
"Before proceeding to the station, had you heard of any murder having been committed? - Yes.
It is common knowledge that two murders were committed that morning, which had you heard of? - Of the one in Mitre square"

They also mention that he had not brought his notebook to the inquest, and was sent to fetch it from Westminster so the wording of the graffito could be checked.

[Wickerman]

There is a bit of a footnote to this query by Harry.

Some months ago we had a bit of a debate over why PC Long did not bring his pocketbook to court, an experienced officer would have known to do that. This was just another criticism made against Long, but as I read through the various press reports of his testimony I noticed something I had not seen before.

It appears PC Long copied the notes from his pocketbook into a report for him to bring as evidence to the inquest. Which is why he had no need to also bring his pocketbook.
The Coroner was questioning whether he had copied the graffiti accurately from his pocketbook into the report.

In the court version we actually do read: "I copied the words from the wall into my report".
(Which must have meant "from the pocketbook into my report")

Long also added: "I wrote down into my book and the Inspector noticed that Jews was spelt Juews".

In the Daily Telegraph we also read the Coroner asked if he had made a note of the graffiti at the time, to which Long replied: "Yes, in my pocket-book."

After this exchange the Coroner asked if Long could go get his pocketbook.
On Long's return, the Coroner asked him: "Both here and in your inspector's report the word "Jews" is spelt correctly?"

"Both here, and in your inspectors report".
We are looking at two sources. The report he had to make for the inspector, presumably after his duty that night, and his original notes made at the scene in his pocketbook.
This was the reason he did not bring his pocketbook to court, he had a copy of the graffiti made in his report which he brought to the inquest.

PC Long is justified once again.

[Wickerman]

And, just for the sake of argument....

The above is also consistent with Collards "list of possessions" made in his pocketbook, which he would also transfer to a report at the station. These foolscap pages are what we have in evidence today. Copies of his notes, but not his original notes which were made in his pocketbook.

[Joshua Rogan]

"Both here, and in your inspectors report".
We are looking at two sources. The report he had to make for the inspector, presumably after his duty that night, and his original notes made at the scene in his pocketbook.
This was the reason he did not bring his pocketbook to court, he had a copy of the graffiti made in his report which he brought to the inquest.

PC Long is justified once again.

Many thanks Jon, I'd not picked up on that detail before. It makes a bit more sense now.
I'm still not clear if the "inspectors report" was Long's report for the (un-named?) inspector, or the inspector's own report on the GSG.

[Elamarna]

So suddenly you are an expert, having been here for only a couple of months.

Let me tell you there are people who have been here since time immemorial who still dont know what they are talking about. People who have no concept as to how to assess and evaluate evidence, or for that matter what the term evidence means.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

How totally insulting. The arrogance in the post and others is truly astonishing.
Only certain people with certain backgrounds can understand the case. Indeed in one post recently it was said that such a view is at least (that means more) valid than the views of those there in 1888 including the police,


Steve

Fortunately we have courts, judges and juries to decide on Evidence, not the police who are only human and make mistakes.

[PaulB]

I'm not sure where the A to Z gets it's info, but it's pretty clear from the press reports that Long said he had heard of the murder.

Times;
"Before proceeding to the station he had heard that a murder had been committed in Mitre-square"

Morning Advertiser;
"I had heard before proceeding to the station that a murder had been committed in Mitre square"

Daily Telegraph;
"Before going did you hear that a murder had been committed? - Yes.
It is common knowledge that two murders have been perpetrated. Which did you hear of? - I heard of the murder in the City. There were rumours of another, but not certain."

Daily News;
"Before proceeding to the station, had you heard of any murder having been committed? - Yes.
It is common knowledge that two murders were committed that morning, which had you heard of? - Of the one in Mitre square"

They also mention that he had not brought his notebook to the inquest, and was sent to fetch it from Westminster so the wording of the graffito could be checked.

He had not heard of the murder before searching the stairs and landings, but had heard of the murder before he took the piece of apron to the police station. He was questioned bout this, saying that he thought he would find someone injured, not that he thought he would come across a murderer. It is not known who told him about the murder, but the only person he is known to have soken to was the policeman he left to watch the building.

[Elamarna]

I have re-read my post and see why it annoyed you. My apologies, Mr Marriott - I chose my words poorly.

Dear Etenguy


"I think it is time to accept that we are not going to convince Mr Marriott that his theory is insufficiently substantiated to convince anyone with more than superficial knowledge of the murders."



Trevor theories ARE insufficiently substantiated, many have NO SUPPORT AT ALL.

And they ARE indeed unlikely to convince any with more than a basic background in the subject.

Which words are you apologising for ?
You said NOTHING which was rude or inaccurate


Steve

[harry]

These newspaper reports we hear so much about.How did they receive their information. Was it a one to one interview with Long.One might think so after reading some of the posts.
Long was asked a question by a juror as to his knowledge of the Eddowes murder,and he answered,under oath,in the negative.Information to that effect also survives.It cannot be changed.So are cetain posters claiming he(Long) lied under oath.

[Joshua Rogan]

He had not heard of the murder before searching the stairs and landings, but had heard of the murder before he took the piece of apron to the police station. He was questioned bout this, saying that he thought he would find someone injured, not that he thought he would come across a murderer. It is not known who told him about the murder, but the only person he is known to have soken to was the policeman he left to watch the building.

Thanks for the reply, Paul.
I agree that PC 190H is the only person he is known to have talked to, but can you be certain that he had not heard of the murder before searching the stairs? In Long's police report, he says, on finding the apron and the writing;
"I at once called the PC on the adjoining beat and then searched the stair-cases"

And according to the Times, the inquest went;
"a juryman. - Having heard of the murder, and having afterwards found the piece of apron with blood on it and the writing on the wall, did it not strike you that it would be well to make some examination of the rooms in the building? You say you searched all the passages, but you would not expect that the man who had committed the murder would hide himself there.
Witness. - Seeing the blood there, I thought that the murder had been committed, and that the body might be placed in the building."

And the Daily News;
"a Juror - Having heard of a murder, and subsequently found a piece of apron with blood upon it, did it not appear to you that it might be as well to examine some of the rooms of the building? - No, sir. I did not expect the man had committed the murder in the passage, but I though the body might have been hidden there."

So, unless I'm missing something, it seems that he had indeed heard of the murder before searching the stairwells, either from PC 190H or some other source.

[Sam Flynn]

These newspaper reports we hear so much about.How did they receive their information?

By sending their reporters to the inquests. Some of the reporters took almost verbatim notes which are invaluable sources of information.

So are cetain posters claiming he(Long) lied under oath.

It's not so much a question of lying, as a need to recognise that none of our sources, even the official ones, could take everything down with unerring accuracy or completeness. That's why we should always read more than one source before coming to any conclusions.

[Trevor Marriott]

By sending their reporters to the inquests. Some of the reporters took almost verbatim notes which are invaluable sources of information.
It's not so much a question of lying, as a need to recognise that none of our sources, even the official ones, could take everything down with unerring accuracy or completeness. That's why we should always read more than one source before coming to any conclusions.

And what conclusion should we come to, one that supports the old theory,one that supports a new theory, or can we say either theory could be correct due to the conflicting reports?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

And what conclusion should we come to, one that supports the old theory,one that supports a new theory, or can we say either theory could be correct due to the conflicting reports?

We need to arrive at the most probable and feasible theories/hypotheses that are consistent with the evidence. Any theory must also be consistent with a number of other factors: scientific, logical, logistical, historical, etc.

[Joshua Rogan]

These newspaper reports we hear so much about.

You can read them yourself, harry, they're almost all available on Casebook;

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/