The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[perrymason]

...."Regardless of weather or not he killed one or both women, in order for Jack to write a chalk message on a wall would require Jack to have chalk. Why would he have chalk?"

To the above my friend smezenen I would say one reason might be that he used it for work. Thats tailors, butchers, dockers, shopkeepers, street artists, and who knows who else.

Happening to have chalk on ones person in Londons East End in 1888 would not be considered a big deal I dont imagine.

I think when he dropped the organs off he intended to ditch the apron near where he knew Jews lived in concentrated numbers....maybe even an International Club member or two. I think he happened to have chalk and decided on the scrawl in addition to the apron while there. Thats why its in such an odd place, heightwise.

Cheers smez

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"Yes, the police may have connected the apron with the message courtesy of their shared location. That wouldn't be an unreasonable deduction, and I daresay they are more clued in to the extent of graffiti in the district than you are. However, and I speculate, they may have believed that the Jew-referencing message tied in with other indications of Jew-implicating antics on the part of the killer on the night of the double event."

...which once again add nothing new to what we already had. The message and the apron were found in the same doorway. Therefore the writing may or may not have been authored by the one who left the apron in that place. End of story. Flip of coin.

In a later post, you write:

"On 13th November, he (Warren) opined that the murders were "evidently done by someone desiring to bring discredit upon Jews and socialists", and when speaking of the GSG on the 6th November, observed that it was "evidently written with the intention of inflaming the public mind against the Jews".

...and you state that this would have been what lay behind a belief on Warrens behalf that the GSG was written by the killer. Of course, this is no proof at all for any decision in either direction on Warrens behalf that the GSG was Ripper-written, but it does of course not detract from the viablity in such a suggestion.
What it DOES do is to point to how very meagre the material was that was accessible to Warren - and any other representant for the force - to deduct from. The killers wish to discredit jews and socialists was anything but evident, in spite of Warrens wording, and the same goes for the GSG. Nothing at all evident about that, Iīd say. We even have an ongoing discussion on this very thread whether the GSG was derogatory or not towards jews.

No matter how hard we try to believe in the ability of the police force to get things right, there must always be a demand for a minimum of information to deduct from. And Warren quite obviously worked from two hunches, or, as I have repeatedly put it: gut feeling. And thatīs fair enough - when you have nothing else to go by.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fish,

Your post made a lot of sense, although I don't believe that 'gut feeling' is good enough for a bureaucrat like Warren. He should have followed protocol, and that would be to preserve the evidence. He should have allowed the police to photograph the graffiti and allowed his men to do their jobs, which was to keep peace and order in the community. Obliterating what could be crucial evidence in order to stifle a fictional mob isn't good enough and it is this that got him fired in November.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Tom

Fictional mob?

Wanna check the Dr Holt reports?

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Monty. Not sure what you're talking about, but I'm referring to the mob in Goulston Street that never happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

And Im referring to the mob attack on Holt that occurred days after the murder of Kelly.

The mob that you state was ficticious Tom.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Monty. I don't believe Warren wiped off the graffiti because he thought some guy named Holt would get jumped in November. To what ambiguously anti-Semitic graffiti did Mr. Holt owe his beating?

My point is that Warren obliterated evidence to prevent a mob he didn't even know would form. He destroyed something real to prevent something theoretical. Who's to say that had he preserved the evidence, Kelly's murder never would have happened, and your friend Holt wouldn't have been jumped.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Hey Tom,

Holt was acting oddly, and dressed uniquely. He was different. Because of that he was labelled as Jack and was attacked.

My point is that the situation Warren was fearful of was real, mob attacks happend. The catalyst could vary from blacking of the face, as Holt did, to an obscure piece of graffiti about Jews.

Warren was preventing rather than curing.

However, He should have held off until a photo was taken in my opinion....it was worth that risk for what was possibly evidence.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm sure we can all agree that people who act and dress differently deserve to be ridiculed, but certainly not attacked. Nevertheless, Warren's job was to catch the Ripper and protect the public. He could have done both, he chose to do only one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

How would he have caught Jack the Ripper by saving the writing?

Monty

[Howard Brown]

Obliterating what could be crucial evidence in order to stifle a fictional mob isn't good enough and it is this that got him fired in November...

Warren resigned. He did not get fired. Issues had been simmering even before the Murrays Magazine fiasco which led Warren to quit before he could be sacked.
The content of the G was in the hands of the reading public on the day the Inquest report appeared in The Times on October 12th, on page 4. No riots or outbursts of exceptional ferocity from this now,common knowledge.

Warren's shortsightedness to remove the G could have led to potentially worse problems for the Jews in general and for the police, since the 12 day gap between the Eddowes murder and the release of information in the newspaper could have exacerbated already existing tensions by making it appear an attempt at cover-up had occurred. There's also the question of how long it took for just about everyone in the neighborhood to discover the wording in the G....about a half hour or so if my guess is correct. News and especially this sort of news doesn't take long to get around.

Monty, Holt was not Jewish and the problems he created cannot be linked to anti-foreigner sentiment, rather to him being a kook. Later buddy.

[perrymason]

My point is that Warren obliterated evidence to prevent a mob he didn't even know would form. He destroyed something real to prevent something theoretical.


Tom Wescott

I just like the way you phrased the above Tom, I think its appropriate.

There is no real defense for the action.

Best regards Tom

[perrymason]

I just like the way you phrased the above Tom, I think its appropriate.

There is no real defense for the action.

Best regards Tom

ps.......edited to add that this is likely a revealing look into the antisemitism that was probably rife throughout the forces at the time. Not only were there thousands of these European Immigrant Jews taking jobs from "Born and Breds" who were for the most part not Jews....but many it seems didnt even know spoken or written English...further complicating the policemens jobs. It was largely Socialist Jews that marched to Trafalgar Square the year before,....and that didnt go so well.

To have a senior officer investigating the crimes to be allowed to publish a sentiment like was done when alluding to the reason the Jewish witness refused to identify the fellow Jew in the Seaside Home...I think thats telling. To suggest that someone would withhold information about Jack the Ripper because he shared the same ethnicity is a monstrous accusation.

Cheers

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Nothing extraordinary in the application of preventive medicine and Warren's actions were quite likely based on his character ( a man who had his officers march in formation and so on) which included a military background as well as an archaeological one. One of the qualities in such a ( military) background is thinking ahead for potential problems down the road. Warren, and it needs to be remembered, was not the only police official who deemed the G worthy of erasure. Arnold did too...and first.

Whatever we might have wanted him to do provides us with 20-20 hindsight....in part because the revelation of the content of the 12 words in the Times ( as an example ) didn't create a riot pinpointing the Jews.

Had it done so...had it fomented riots of the proportions of 1887..., some of us doing the old woulda,shoulda,coulda wouldn't be doing so and would accept and understand that the lesser of two evils, removing the G, was probably the right thing to do at that time. They at least wrote down the message and were satisfied with that.

Later Mike.

[Howard Brown]

edited to add that this is likely a revealing look into the antisemitism that was probably rife throughout the forces at the time...Perry Mason.

Mike:

Prove that statement with one document that says otherwise....or one action which demonstrates police procedure singling out foreigners for less than savory treatment.