The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[etenguy]

Hi Etenguy.

Leaving aside the distance from Mitre Square as i don't think it's particularly relevant to your points...

I think it is logical to assume that there was some "clean up" involved after all the murders, but the apron is the only evidence that we have of them

I ask myself what was different on that night that made him cut a piece of apron, for whatever reason?

He had killed before on that night.

Perhaps the handkerchief he usually used was already bloodied or perhaps even discarded knowing the Stride killing was the closest yet he had come to getting caught in the act?

Caught with a knife is one thing, caught with a knife and the bloody rag it has been cleaned with...slightly more troublesome.

I don't think the "difficult questions" you mention are "difficult" in the slightest, just that there are many plausible explanations so we will never really know why on that night he cut a piece of apron and discarded it.

The substance of your alternative explanation makes sense, and as you say, there may have been different reasons.

Carrying the apron would tie him to the murder, but not more so than being found with the organs, which he didn't discard - or at least we have no evidence he discarded. But the reasons he needed the rag and then discarding it when finished is plausible.

[Sam Flynn]

Point taken, but he must have got blood over himself at the earlier murders. Maybe he was less happy with faeces.

I think most of us would be

[DirectorDave]

The substance of your alternative explanation makes sense, and as you say, there may have been different reasons.

Carrying the apron would tie him to the murder, but not more so than being found with the organs, which he didn't discard - or at least we have no evidence he discarded. But the reasons he needed the rag and then discarding it when finished is plausible.

I don't think he needed to get rid of the apron in the same way he would have done with his clean up accoutrement after the Stride killing.

With the Stride killing the alarm was up almost immediately, the hunt was on and soon the police would be heading in that direction.

The Eddowes killing was done without disturbance in a secluded corner that may not be discovered for some time, there was a lot less urgency after the second killing, he was more confident of escape...after all the police attention was on the other side of town because 'ol leather apron had killed again.

[Sam Flynn]

Still a bit of a distance if he was covered in gunk - he'd have passed side streets sooner to quickly clean up. But maybe he didn't feel safe to stop sooner.

It's actually quite a short hop from Mitre Sq to Goulston St, and one doesn't have to be on the main roads for long. If "Jack" was a local, then he'd have known that Wentworth Model Dwellings' sheltered entrance-ways were within easy reach of Mitre Square, and would have offered a handy location in which to clean himself up before venturing further.

[Wickerman]

Now I accept that the bodies of Chapman and Eddowes should not have been tampered with before the post mortem. But we know there was almost a 12 hour window when both the bodies were left at the mortuaries, and so we have know idea what happened during that 12 hour window.

We also know that Chapmans body was left outside for some considerable time, and we also know that during that 12 hour window her body was in fact tampered with.

Now there may, or may not have been a police officer standing guard, but what was his job.

There was an officer posted at the door, you brought this up years ago and you were shown press cuttings which described the police guard at the mortuary.

The mortuaries did not shut their doors, the normal everyday working of the mortuary still continued with medical persons going back and forth.

What "everyday working" are you talking about? With Nichols & Chapman, there was no mortuary, it was a shed, and in a deplorable condition.
There was no medical staff "coming and going", so no-one to pilfer with the corpse.

[Wickerman]

So there were three pieces of apron,Jon?The piece found on her body,the piece noted by Collard among her possessions.The Handkerchief around her neck,which wasn't a handkerchief but a piece of apron.
Sorry,four pieces,I forgot the piece Long found.Any advances on four pieces anyone?

I think your little joke fell flat Harry.

There were only two pieces of apron. Long found the second piece.
The first piece was tied around the neck, which is identified on 'the list' as a handkerchief "blood stained".

Kerchief/neckerchief/handkerchief/scarf were all interchangeable terms, they all describe a headcovering. The officer making the list simply assumed the remnant tied around her neck was a rudimentary scarf, or headcovering. He listed it as "handkerchief". Yes, I know today we use that term for a specific small piece of linen to go in the pocket, but this was a hundred years ago, not yesterday.

Now which piece was brought to the attention of Brown?Not the piece on the body,because the body was nude.

The GS piece was brought to Brown's attention, and it matched the piece described as "handkerchief" (on the list, along with the red silk ribbon).
"1 Piece of red gauze silk, various cuts thereon found on neck"
"1 large White Handkerchief, blood stained".

The Times identified the piece correctly:
".....and a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely around the neck."
Times, Oct. 1st.

There is only two pieces.

[harry]

Two things I find interesting, is why did Long think it necessary to take the piece of material to the police station,and why did Phillips take it to the post mortem examination.Neither action,to me,seem of importance at the time.There were alternatives.

[Wickerman]

It may simply have been discarded, but if so why did he cut the apron, take away a piece and discard it there?

Goulston street is a fair distance from Mitre Square, so he'd be carrying it for a while.

The proposed route, is in blue.



That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.

I assume he had a reason to take the apron portion in the first place. There are three (and perhaps more) plausible reasons
1. to clean up - but he'd never done that before
2. to carry away the organs - but why then choose a different carrying method at Goulston street?
3. to authenticate a message - possibly but requires a belief that the link between the graffito and apron would be made - as indeed it was - but the juxtaposition would need to be carefully organised.

On your point 2., I doubt he still carried the organs when he reached Goulston Street, he likely had already dropped them off somewhere. Then returned to discard the apron for some reason.

[Wickerman]

Two things I find interesting, is why did Long think it necessary to take the piece of material to the police station,and why did Phillips take it to the post mortem examination.Neither action,to me,seem of importance at the time.There were alternatives.

Well, before PC Long took the piece to Commercial St., he says he had heard of another murder in the City.
So, as his search of the premises in Goulston st. turned up nothing, it is reasonable that he might speculate this piece of bloodstained rag was connected to one of the two murders he had heard of that night.
He did the right thing.

We don't know where Phillips was at this time, but it is reasonable that the Inspector on duty at Commercial St. would contact Phillips to see if this rag was connected to the Berner St. murder.
We don't know what the timeline is for these events. We don't know what time the GS piece finally arrived at Golden Lane mortuary, but it could have been taken to St. George's mortuary first, by Phillips, to see if it matched Stride's clothing.
Then Phillips would proceed to Golden Lane with the bloodstained piece.

Anything particularly odd about that to you?

[Trevor Marriott]

Precisely. That doesn't happen by accident, or even a few random stabs. The killer had to lift the intestines and deliberately cut through perhaps 15ft of messentary to free them.

We have no idea as to how they became detached, what you suggest is pure speculation, as it was from Dr Brown who stated they were placed there by design.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't think he needed to get rid of the apron in the same way he would have done with his clean up accoutrement after the Stride killing.

With the Stride killing the alarm was up almost immediately, the hunt was on and soon the police would be heading in that direction.

The Eddowes killing was done without disturbance in a secluded corner that may not be discovered for some time, there was a lot less urgency after the second killing, he was more confident of escape...after all the police attention was on the other side of town because 'ol leather apron had killed again.

If the killer was disturbed in Mitre Sq by Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage, and I believe he was then your suggestion is not valid.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

There was an officer posted at the door, you brought this up years ago and you were shown press cuttings which described the police guard at the mortuary.

What "everyday working" are you talking about? With Nichols & Chapman, there was no mortuary, it was a shed, and in a deplorable condition.
There was no medical staff "coming and going", so no-one to pilfer with the corpse.

Whatever was used as a mortuary is irrelevant.The fact is, it was used as a mortuary, it wasn't just opened as a mortuary just to accommodate Chapmans body.

So yes there would have been medical staff coming and going.

The officer was there to stop the press and public from gaining access

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

The proposed route, is in blue.



That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.




On your point 2., I doubt he still carried the organs when he reached Goulston Street, he likely had already dropped them off somewhere. Then returned to discard the apron for some reason.

What a ridiculous suggestion

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Well, before PC Long took the piece to Commercial St., he says he had heard of another murder in the City.
So, as his search of the premises in Goulston st. turned up nothing, it is reasonable that he might speculate this piece of bloodstained rag was connected to one of the two murders he had heard of that night.
He did the right thing.

We don't know where Phillips was at this time, but it is reasonable that the Inspector on duty at Commercial St. would contact Phillips to see if this rag was connected to the Berner St. murder.
We don't know what the timeline is for these events. We don't know what time the GS piece finally arrived at Golden Lane mortuary, but it could have been taken to St. George's mortuary first, by Phillips, to see if it matched Stride's clothing.
Then Phillips would proceed to Golden Lane with the bloodstained piece.

Anything particularly odd about that to you?

Phillips was handed the GS piece at Leman St police station.

He did not take it to the mortuary at Golden Lane till the following day when it was then matched with the piece at the mortuary.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.
.

It's a three or four minute trot. And it's not so much a matter of his wiping his hands as he went, but that he needed somewhere safe where he COULD wipe his hands. The Goulston Street doorway was an ideal place to do so. Far enough away from the action, but not so far away that he'd risk being out on the streets for long.