The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[JTRSickert]

Hello, everyone. I'm new to the forum, so here is my first post.'

Concerning the Double Event and Goulston Street graffiito, it's my personal opinion that JTR went out to kill that night for 2 reasons: one, to satisfy his bloodlust and two, to try to deflect the investigation into the murders away from him...specifically, on the Jews. Of course, this is just mere speculation, but here is what I think happened:

At around 12:30, the Ripper meets up with Liz Stride near the International Working Men's Educational Club. Now, I for one, believe it was HE, not her, that chose that location to conduct a "transaction," or at least that's what she thought it was going to be. I think he intended to kill and mutiliate her there so that he would satisfy his perverse desires and leave her body right there. Now, since the club was frequented by Jews, I think he intended for the police to come across Liz's body all mutilated and cut up right in front of the club so that the coppers would think the Jews were responsible and possibly arrest one or all of them. Now, of course, there are problems that arise: Around 12:45, Israel Schwartz and Pipe Man show up. On top of this, Liz Stride is not as docile as his previous victims were. She starts to put up a fight and Schwartz and the Pipe Man take notice of this. Now, Schwartz could not speak English so the only word he could pick up was "Lipski," which was probably directed towards him as an ethnic slur. But, I think JTR said more than just that, probably yelling at both Schwartz and Pipe Man to get out and called Schwartz "Lipski" in the process. Afterwards, JTR slashes Liz's throat but, a few minutes after, Diemschutz is approaching and JTR must hide before he's discovered. Upon seeing Diemschutz enter the club, he realizes he can't carry out his plan anymore. A crowd will be gathering and he won't be able to mutilate her in front of the club anymore. So, he hightails towards Mitre Square where he successfully kills and mutilates Kate Eddowes. Now, the reason I think the killer chose not to leave a message here is because he may have noticed a PC walking on his beat as he was stalking Eddowes. Afterwards, he still wants to try to place blame on Jews. I don't think he merely took the apron piece just to clean off. I think he wanted it to try use as "proof" that Jews were behind the crime. So, how can he do this now with all the cops and crowd back at Dutfields yard? He certainly can't leave the apron piece in front of the club now. So, where's the next best place? Why, Goulston street! Why? Because it adjoins Middlesex Street (Petticoat Lane) where lots of Jewish merchants conduct business. Now, did the Ripper write the message. Maybe, maybe not. To me, that's irrelevant. What is important is that I think he deliberately placed the apron piece directly under it so that people would see it and the graffito and would believe that the jewish community were commiting the murders or, at least, harboring the murderer. Now, this is just a thought I had. Feel free to disagree withme but I think it's at least a plausible, if not likely, scenario.

[Ben]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, JTRSickert. I've argued along similar lines before. Accepting of course that ol' Walter himself isn't supposed to be the man with the plan in this case.

Welcome!

Ben

[perrymason]

I think JTR Sickert made a good point in there.....its most probable that even if the killer didnt write the message that he was aware of the writing he was placing the apron close to.

Cheers Mates.

[FrankO]

Hi JTRSickert,

First of all, welcome to the boards!

Then, although to a certain degree it’s plausible, your scenario doesn’t fit with some facts of the case and doesn’t seem particularly likely to me.

First, I don’t see why the Ripper would need to deflect the investigation away from him when the police weren’t even on his tail, when they weren't even close and had no clue whatsoever about who or what they were dealing with to begin with.

Secondly, until then and afterwards the Ripper killed in places that were quiet in the sense that there were hardly any people around and those who were, were asleep or at least trying to sleep. He seems to have been cautious enough not to get seen or at least noticed.

So, the idea that he wanted to kill and mutilate Stride in front of a Club that was filled with people who were so obviously wide-awake, at a time when people were still up and about in the streets, seems very much at odds with this. As does the fact that he was seen attacking Stride. Plus, the attack in which Stride was killed seems to have differed from the other cases.

Furthermore, the Ripper needed to work fast to achieve what he did, so it seems very unlikely that he would have taken his time after cutting Stride’s throat and before Diemschutz arrived at the scene. If he was to be interrupted by Diemshutz, Stride’s killer attacked her for the cut to her throat just about when he first heard Diemshutz cart & pony approach.

Just my two cents of course.

All the best,
Frank

[c.d.]

I think JTR Sickert made a good point in there.....its most probable that even if the killer didnt write the message that he was aware of the writing he was placing the apron close to.

Cheers Mates

I just can't see Jack patiently taking the time to conduct a survey of the surrounding graffiti till he finds one that most closely resembles the thought that he wanted to express. I think he simply tossed the apron.

c.d.

[JTRSickert]

Hey guys, Thanks for the welcome. And as for my scenario I laid out, more than likely, that's not what happened, but I thought it was awfully coincidental that the first murder happens outside a Jewish club and later some evidence is found near anti-Semetic graffiti. Just seemed like something deliberate was going on...

Here is another scenario that occured to me. I'm not trying to poke fun at Eddowes's murder; I fell terrible when I see pictures of her but there is a small humorous element to this case. If you'll all recall, there wasn't just blood found on the piece of apron that was found. There was also some fecal matter. Now, here's the questions: what if the fecal matter wasn't Eddowes's and what if JTR didn't tear it off to clean the blood. Suppose this:JTR is in the process of "Doing his work" on Eddowes. In the process, her clothing gets rather bloody. Just then, something begins to stir in JTR's bowels. Something he cannot ignore. He says to himself, "Oh bloody hell, I knew I shouldn't have had that fish and chips before I started my work tonight." So, JTR cuts his work short and realizes he doesn't have any wiping paper. So, he cuts off a piece of Eddowes's apron and rushes off to Goulston street. Maybe he found some dark spot in Goulston and just squatted and did what came naturally. Afterwards, he uses the apron to wipe and just tosses it into the door archway. Who knows? maybe if the coppers had checked around, they might have come across some of JTR's droppings. LOL.


Just trying to add some humor here to you all.

[Ben]

Hi Frank,

First, I don’t see why the Ripper would need to deflect the investigation away from him when the police weren’t even on his tail

That's true, although there was still every incentive in taking advantage of widespread anti-semitism and ensuring that suspicion is sustained in the direction of the generic scapegoat.

Hope all's well!

Ben

[JTRSickert]

I have to agree Ben.

While you certainly don't want the cops attention to be put on yourself, it's also a good idea to try to make them think that someone else was responsible. The most likely scapegoat would be the Jews.

[Monty]

Why?

Monty

[JTRSickert]

Monty,

I was talking about within the context of London, East End, 1888. The Jews were the typical scapegoated minority that received the brunt of abuse from the press and local lower-class native Londoners.

So, if the Ripper was gonna try to implicate someone else for his crimes, the best choice at the time were the Jews

[Monty]

Oh I see.

So if Jack wrote something about Jews, and left an apron piece from his victim as proof, then the Police will turn their gaze upon the Jewish populace. Cos Police, like sheep, is stupid.

The whole act, on the murderers behalf with regards diverting Police attention, is pointless.

If, and its extremely doubtful he did...if he left the message then its personal one.

Monty

[FrankO]

That's true, although there was still every incentive in taking advantage of widespread anti-semitism and ensuring that suspicion is sustained in the direction of the generic scapegoat.

Hi Ben!

I'm with Monty here. Although I don't see that incentive, he could have written the darn thing anyway. But if he did, why not make a short and clear statement and why not make it clearly yours while you're at it? If he wrote it with the purpose of getting the police focus their attention on 'the Jewes', then communication sure wasn't his thing.

Btw, all's well here, thanks - hope you're doing okay too!

Frank

[perrymason]

I think one thing that can reasonably explain an anomaly that night in the killers behavior....such as deciding to actually write something on a dado. If this was Jacks Double as many believe, thats a unique night in his history. If he killed one woman and was being blamed for 2....so is that.

The night itself is an anomaly no matter how you slice it, so an act like the writing of a message right next to a piece of material he took from the deceased in Mitre Square need not be so "uncharacteristic".

Theres no need to buy into thousands of taunt letters....but on this night we do have the words Jews and Blame in the message....and we do have Jews blaming Jack. The first words out of the mouths of Eagle and Diemshutz when they sought help were "another" woman has been killed. Since only one is killed in their yard that night, and the 2nd victim was still alive in jail at the time, they must have meant the man at large slicing women up as recently as 3 weeks earlier. This time, sans slicing of course......which is akin to a avid bowler heading out to bowl and instead, for no reason, he plays darts.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

The night itself is an anomaly no matter how you slice it, so an act like the writing of a message right next to a piece of material he took from the deceased in Mitre Square need not be so "uncharacteristic".

One can't say that "anything goes" just because Jack might have killed two women that morning, Mike. The "Double Event" should be treated as logically separate from the writing of the GSG - to do otherwise is to presuppose that Jack really did kill both Stride and Eddowes. If Jack didn't, then the night wasn't an "anomaly" from his perspective anyway. In either scenario, the events of that night could not have altered the probability that the graffito was there all along.

[JTRSickert]

Hey guys,

Something else just occured to me. If we assume, for the sake of argument, that the killer did, in fact, write the graffito, then it's meaning is rather dubious. Is it possible though that he mighr have ben distracted (like, maybe he heard footsteps, thought it was a cop) and just split, leaving the message incomplete? Just a thought. Let me know what you think.