Height of GSG a Clue?

[Jon Guy]

And why might it not have been neatly written by a midget?
.

Hello John

Probably not much bigger :

Mrs Long - her man was a few inches taller than the 5 foot Annie Chapman

Levy - two or three inches taller than a 5 foot Eddowes.

Cox - 5 foot five

Lawende and Schwartz - 5 foot 7

[perrymason]

Interesting thread. My two cents:

There is a debate about whether the message was significantly below shoulder level as to impair legibility. Even if it was, if Jack was kneeling down with the purpose of writing the message as close to the cloth as possible, this is no longer an issue. Kinda funny: By explicitly trying to connect message and bloody cloth via proximity, he has convinced those on his trail 120 years later that a boy most have written the message.

Why not write the message on the red brick? Well perhaps he wanted to be out of the street (not as visible) when he wrote it.

I find it too much of a coincidence that (a) Stride was killed outside a Jewish club and (b) on the same night a bloody cloth from Eddowes was found directly under a message that references "Juwes" to simply conclude that it was just graffiti from a schoolboy. That's not to say that Stride was necessarily a Ripper victim. Perhaps Jack was ticked off that the buzz on the streets was that another Ripper victim had been found on Berner Street. An antisemitic Jack might have been complaining that they never will blame the Jews for anything.

Welcome Barnaby, and my best to Burgho I agree with some of your sentiments, particularly with the notion that co-incidence doesnt quite cover up the fact that 2 murders were committed that night, one on Jewish private property, the other near the Great Synagogue, ...the witnesses statements for both events are almost all Jewish, and the message is scrawled in an entrance to an almost exclusively Jewish enclave, and that both women were known to work for Jewish families....(a point no-one raises much, and a good one considering Liz's more formal than usual attire, judging by the "good clothing" her lodging house friend used to describe her dress...and on a night Jewish families gathered for dinner together),....

The writing is either used as a mere backdrop to his discard if it predated his arrival, or as a message likely that related to one or more of the witnesses from either just Mitre Square, or both sites. But in either case, The Ripper "alligned" himself with the writing.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

...the witnesses statements for both events are almost all Jewish, and the message is scrawled in an entrance to an almost exclusively Jewish enclave

...in an part of London, covering a large area, that happened to have had a high-density Jewish population, Mike.

and that both women were known to work for Jewish families....

...known to us, by virtue of posterity, but unless both Stride and Eddowes were wearing sandwich-boards declaring "I've been known to do casual work for some Jewish people once in a while", unlikely to have been known to any passer-by at the time.

[perrymason]

...in an part of London, covering a large area, that happened to have had a high-density Jewish population, Mike....known to us, by virtue of posterity, but unless both Stride and Eddowes were wearing sandwich-boards declaring "I've been known to do casual work for some Jewish people once in a while", unlikely to have been known to any passer-by at the time.

Hi Sam,

A high Jewish poulation locally and a building that may have had 90% or more Jewish tenants are somewhat skewed comparisons, perhaps the local population in that area was 50 or 60 or even 70 percent Jewish...which it wasnt, but even if so, theres a much more likely chance of leaving a note a Jew might see in that entranceway to dwellings that were approx 90% Jewish.

And on their working for Jewish families,....whose to say one or both didnt have men in their lives that thought very poorly of Jews, and might become agressive with the women for doing so?

Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

theres a much more likely chance of leaving a note a Jew might see in that entranceway to dwellings that were approx 90% Jewish.

Fair enough, Mike, but there were loads of other places in that area where equal, or better, odds of achieving such a goal could easily have been achieved.

Be that as it may, this thread is actually about the height of the GSG as a potential clue, rather than the GSG's alleged purpose. There might yet be some mileage in that, though... The graffito would have had a better chance of being seen if it was at eye-level relative to its intended recipients, and given that the GSG was about 4ft off the ground, perhaps we can surmise that most of the tenants were Jewish dwarfs

[Chava]

4' off the ground? A kid probably wrote it. He wouldn't have found it too hard to score a bit of chalk at school...

[perrymason]

Hello again,

Back on the specifics Sam, if Mikes experiment results are indicative of anything, its that the overwhelming majority of the subjects wrote at chest height, which at 4 feet, is beyond dwarf "chest high" range.

In the case of a teacher, as Mike said, they might start well above their head to write, working down the available space to chest height or below, but this started at 4 feet and worked down, in 5 separate lines I believe, which might mean it wasnt put there to "teach" anyone. It could just be simple venting....perhaps for being accused of a murder that "Juewes" blamed HIM for.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

Back on the specifics Sam, if Mikes experiment results are indicative of anything, its that the overwhelming majority of the subjects wrote at chest height

...um, they didn't actually, Mike. The results showed a small majority who wrote at neck-height or above - although the effect was not statistically significant.

[perrymason]

...um, they didn't actually, Mike. The results showed a small majority who wrote at neck-height or above - although the effect was not statistically significant.

Hi Sam,

Its not that I am unfamiliar with having virtually every post I offer shot down by you, but it seems to me by these statistics...

High overhead beginning: 2

Forehead to top of head: 5

Nose to eye level: 6

Neck to chin: 2

Chest: 13

......that of the 28 subjects used in the experiment, approx 7.1 % began over the head, approx 17% started from between the forehead and top of head, approx 21% started from between nose and eye level, approx 7.1 % started from between the neck and chin, and approx 46% started from chest height....more than twice the number of the closest group.

You grouped everyone "above the neck" as one group, which clearly they are not, as far as the test parameters established, indeed there are 4 subgroups within that range, and the results indicated clearly a ratio of at least 2 to 1 starting at chest height as compared with the next most frequently used starting height.

Best regards.

[Howard Brown]

Sammy,Mike,Good Mike,all...

Lets remember that the available space on where the author wrote the G began at 48 inches or less. If the author was 6 feet tall ,he'd have to lean or lurch forward and write at chest height. If the author was 5 feet tall, he'd still begin at chest height,but without much,if any leaning into the wall....and the message would have had virtually the same point of origin despite the 12 inch disparity between the 6 footer and the 5 footer.... I just tried this with my wife who is 5'1".

[perrymason]

Sammy,Mike,Good Mike,all...

Lets remember that the available space on where the author wrote the G began at 48 inches or less. If the author was 6 feet tall ,he'd have to lean or lurch forward and write at chest height. If the author was 5 feet tall, he'd still begin at chest height,but without much,if any leaning into the wall....and the message would have had virtually the same point of origin despite the 12 inch disparity between the 6 footer and the 5 footer.... I just tried this with my wife who is 5'1".

Hi there Howard,

If it started at 48" and decended, and was in 5 separate lines as reported, then its interesting enough in that alone to wonder why someone would choose such a silly spot for a single line or two of message. Forced to break it into 5 lines due to the available width.

I think that if he wrote it, he was kneeling or crouching in such a way as to rise quickly if need be,....and if he was in that position, I lean towards him placing the apron section rather than just dropping it...and that act would be treating the cloth as semi-sacred, which one that carried organs might be to him.

All the best Howard.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

Its not that I am unfamiliar with having virtually every post I offer shot down by you, but it seems to me by these statistics...

High overhead beginning: 2
Forehead to top of head: 5
Nose to eye level: 6
Neck to chin: 2
Chest: 13

Mike,

13 at chest level

2 + 5 + 6 + 2 = 15 at above-chest level

Never mind the percentages, or the sub-categories. The bottom line is that a small majority wrote at neck-level or above, compared to those who wrote at chest-level or below (an aggregate of 15 as against 13).

You grouped everyone "above the neck" as one group, which clearly they are not

Of course they are. The chin, nose, eyes, forehead and "overhead" are all members of the group "above chest level". Arranging data into groups is a perfectly legitimate part of the statistical method.

If you want to dis-aggregate, then "chest level or below" should be broken down into "First rib... Second rib... Third rib... etc." down to "Gastric... Umbilical... Naughty-bits".

[perrymason]

If the subgroups were defined in ranges that all exist within the neck to forehead, and from the middle of my own neck it is approx 9" to match my forehead's height, then you are grouping the better part of a foot difference in range as being a single group, and the majority were above the chest in overall numbers.

But what of the exact height of all of them, or reach, what of the personality nuances that come out when people are asked to do similar tests...some might reach when they wouldnt normally, some might consciously try to be "normal".

I suggest the "normal" range in this test is in the chest height groups numbers. Because we have to assume that some from each group will not be usable due to the quirks or physical differences in the subjects.

In a test like this, informal and unscientific, surely you'd agree that to see that 13 people of 28 decided to write at chest height, and no more than 6 people could decide to write at various levels above that indicates that although the cumulative numbers favour above the neck, the majority of test subjects chose chest height as their group.

Im not trying to beat this to death, I can add..but surely you see what Im going for.

Cheers and manyana.

[The Good Michael]

Howard,

So, I should have conducted my experiment beginning at the 48" mark? Why did he choose this height to begin with? It may have had to do with the idea that it would stand out better if written on the dado, but I think it was just more comfortable to write at that level. It was only three lines according to Halse. I don't think that would have taken more than 5 inches of vertical space, from top of chest to base of chest sounds about right, or from brow to chin if a boy did it. Yet, I think there's nothing in it really. I vote we rule out children and move on to why D'Onstan would write such a thing

Addition: Isn't the dado just a groove where one would fit a joist or a shelf? It is strange that the writing would be inset. If that is so, I think it rules out a graffitist.

Cheers,

Mike

[Howard Brown]

Good Mike,Regular Mike & Bad Sam:

Regardless of where or how one conducts tests to determine where people ordinarily begin writing ( head height, chest height,etc...) ....the fact remains that the message was placed in an area where the available writing space started at 48 inches or less. The space above the black bricks was white and to write with white chalk on white space would have been counterproductive for any message,regardless of whether or not the Ripper or a civilian wanted to leave some sentiments.

I have no idea(s) on why the message was left there.