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Was The City Responsible For The Gsg & Apron

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  • Was The City Responsible For The Gsg & Apron

    Greetings all .. Allow me another crack at this ole chestnut .. Actually looking for solid facts to put this theory to bed once and for all ..
    (East london advertizer 13th october 88) City Police-constable Lewis Robinson: "When asked her name she replied, "Nothing." Last time he saw her was at 9 o'clock in the cell". City Police then put Eddows, AKA "Nothing" out on the street around 1am. Soon there after City man Halse hears of a murder in Mitre Sq and heads there along with Detectives Outram and Marryat, there find the murdered Eddows. On arrival he dispatches Outram and Marryat to commence a search, ("I at once gave instructions for the neighborhood to be searched and every man stopped"). At some point around this time Halse learns that it is the same woman known as "Nothing" who was just recently kicked out of old Jewry nick.

    (Echo) "A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody a short time ago on a charge of drunkenness"
    (Daily News) "Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square".

    Halse then heads up to Goulston St (Metropolitan territory) coincidently , and curiously both Halse and PC Long who both claim to be in Goulston street close to 2.20am miss each other . After returning to Mitre Sq, Halse then visits the mortuary , this time he noticed that a portion of Eddows apron was missing.

    In Paul Harrison's book, 'Jack the Ripper - The Mystery Solved' Harrison claims that contacts in the Metropolitan Police told him of resentment in the Met at being blamed for everything that was wrong in East London and being compared unfavorably with the City Police. He continued ..
    "The message was nothing more than a jibe at the City Police. The word 'Juwes' should have been spelt 'Jewes' and was meant to refer to the nickname used by the majority of the Metropolitan Officers when referring to their City opponents. The nickname derives from the Old Jewry police headquarters of the City Police. If the story is correct, a fact in which I have no reason to doubt, then it explains Superintendent Arnold and Sir Charles Warren's rival actions in removing the message".

    For me personally , i believe Harrison may have been on the right tracks but riding the wrong train .. Because it was indeed a fact that the City Police put a semi drunk Eddows AKA "Nothing" back out on the street at such a deadly hour to meet her killer .. I wonder how long it was before rumors were starting to circulate that the Old Jewry were to blame for the Mitre Sq death ? Is it really beyond the realms of possibility that old Jewry man Halse or maybe even detectives Outram or Marryat ("their superior officers") may have taken it upon themselves to refute claims that the Old Jewry was to blame for the death of "nothing" (Eddows) on City ground , and by simply picking up a piece of torn off apron that was laying close beside Eddows bloodied body, and carrying it back into Metropolitan territory, simply lay the blame back where they feel it belongs, in the deluge that is the East End. The message that was possibly written with police chalk in a round schoolboy hand could not have been clearer ,"The Juwes are not the men who will be blamed for nothing".

    Moon .
    Last edited by moonbegger; 03-10-2017, 12:10 AM.

  • #2
    Not sure you're going to get solid facts to "put it to bed" one way or the other.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Moonbeggar,
      At first glance it seems a plausible theory, but the timeline is a bit too tight for me. I'm not aware that any rumours of the City force being to blame for Eddowes' death were ever in circulation, let alone within an hour and a half of the murder.
      By the time Eddowes was released, she had identified herself as Mary Ann Kelly, so was no longer simply the "nothing" she initially named herself to PC Robinson. However, it's tempting to think that, after arresting Kate, he returned to his beat and somewhere around Aldgate might have bumped into DC Halse and related the story of her arrest. But it's difficult to believe he described her in such detail that Halse immediately recognised the horribly disfigured body in Mitre Square as the "nothing" who had been locked up. And even harder to believe he somehow knew she had just been released, and immediately decided to tamper with evidence. And just what did he hope to achieve? After all, Kate had just been released by the City force (not "kicked out" of Old Jewry St Detective Office, but released as sober from Bishopsgate police station, according to them), and brutally murdered on City ground. Moving a bit of apron and writing a message didn't change those facts, so wouldn't have prevented any accusing fingers being pointed their way, had any been poised to do so.


      What puzzles me most is why Halse, a detective constable, apparently took charge and gave orders when Outram - a detective sergeant who arrived at the same time - outranked him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello Joshua ,

        "it's tempting to think that, after arresting Kate, he returned to his beat and somewhere around Aldgate might have bumped into DC Halse and related the story of her arrest. But it's difficult to believe he described her in such detail that Halse immediately recognised the horribly disfigured body in Mitre Square as the "nothing" who had been locked up. And even harder to believe he somehow knew she had just been released"

        I was actually connecting the dots of assumption, alluding to the slight possibility that Eddows had indeed been identified as the woman recently held and released from Bishopsgate Police station in the immediate hour after her murder ..Maybe even it was PC george simmons & PC Robinson who identified Eddows "to their superior officers" as the same woman they brought into Bishopsgate a "short" time ago "it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink." And its most likely her "nothing" story was also included in the conversation .

        (Echo) "A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody a short time ago on a charge of drunkenness"
        (Daily News) "Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square".

        Moon .
        Last edited by moonbegger; 03-10-2017, 11:42 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GUT View Post
          Not sure you're going to get solid facts to "put it to bed" one way or the other.
          There is roughly a 30 minute period that Kate goes missing.

          If Jack had an away from home lair for times away from the wife and daughter,it could have been,say 6 Mitre Street.
          Busy day. Lessons to go on the blackboards,maybe a Boards of Works AGM,some blackmailers,etc.
          If Kate had received money earlier and celebrated whilst waiting for Liz and BSM,it would make sense for her to return after being released.
          She does not know Liz is dead and prolly explains her time in jail to Jack,including "nothing".
          Jack strangles her,takes her out the back and through the fence gate into Mitre Square.

          Goulston Street was a red herring to deflect attention away from Mitre Square.

          I do believe certain cops knew what was going on.
          Major Henry Smith was on the ball. Seemed important to him for some reason.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DJA View Post
            There is roughly a 30 minute period that Kate goes missing.

            If Jack had an away from home lair for times away from the wife and daughter,it could have been,say 6 Mitre Street.
            Busy day. Lessons to go on the blackboards,maybe a Boards of Works AGM,some blackmailers,etc.
            If Kate had received money earlier and celebrated whilst waiting for Liz and BSM,it would make sense for her to return after being released.
            She does not know Liz is dead and prolly explains her time in jail to Jack,including "nothing".
            Jack strangles her,takes her out the back and through the fence gate into Mitre Square.

            Goulston Street was a red herring to deflect attention away from Mitre Square.

            I do believe certain cops knew what was going on.
            Major Henry Smith was on the ball. Seemed important to him for some reason.
            Dave,

            I believe the back of #6 Mitre Street only had a window. There was a door leading into the back of #5, though. Also, the gate was locked at the time of the murder. The yard was used as a lumber room.

            Comment


            • #7
              6 and 7 both had back doors,as did 5.

              The police sketch shows the tops.

              What's the use of a fenced backyard without a key
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DJA View Post
                What's the use of a fenced backyard without a key
                I don't know, ask Franklin Sydney King.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You've been reading Daily Telegraph,October 1,1888,page 5

                  The 1887 lumber shed is nowhere to be seen in the 1888 police sketch.
                  Last edited by DJA; 03-10-2017, 03:42 PM. Reason: Daily Telegraph 1888.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DJA View Post
                    You've been reading Daily Telegraph,October 1,1888,page 5

                    The 1887 lumber shed is nowhere to be seen in the 1888 police sketch.
                    Sort of. That was posted in an old thread about the gate on this site. However, the press report for that day in Casebook's library doesn't have that quote in the Daily Telegraph on Oct 1, 1888 page 5. I'm wondering if it was a misprint on the name of the paper or the date?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There were a number of mistakes on that thread.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here is an pretty radical idea Jerry & DJA .. Why not take your "back yard" topic to a relevant thread ..or indeed start your own one .. Cheers
                        Last edited by moonbegger; 03-10-2017, 04:31 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by moonbegger View Post
                          Here is an idea Jerry & DJA .. Why not take your "back yard" topic to a relevant thread ..or indeed start your own one .. Cheers
                          Was heading that way. Sorry to intrude.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ditto.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by moonbegger View Post
                              Hello Joshua ,

                              "it's tempting to think that, after arresting Kate, he returned to his beat and somewhere around Aldgate might have bumped into DC Halse and related the story of her arrest. But it's difficult to believe he described her in such detail that Halse immediately recognised the horribly disfigured body in Mitre Square as the "nothing" who had been locked up. And even harder to believe he somehow knew she had just been released"

                              I was actually connecting the dots of assumption, alluding to the slight possibility that Eddows had indeed been identified as the woman recently held and released from Bishopsgate Police station in the immediate hour after her murder ..Maybe even it was PC george simmons & PC Robinson who identified Eddows "to their superior officers" as the same woman they brought into Bishopsgate a "short" time ago "it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink." And its most likely her "nothing" story was also included in the conversation .

                              (Echo) "A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody a short time ago on a charge of drunkenness"
                              (Daily News) "Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square".

                              Moon .
                              I'm not sure there's anything that points to Robinson or Simmons seeing the body in situ at Mitre Square. Much more likely they were some of the "large number of persons" who viewed the body at the mortuary before Eddowes was identified. The Echo quote is from 2nd Oct, 2 and a half days after the murder.

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