The William Turner Letters

[nicole]

Hi all,

It's been quite a while since I've posted, but here goes.....

Does anyone have the full text of the two letters sent by a Mr. William Turner of 4 Paternoster Row (runs between Dorset Street and Brushfield Street)???
His first letter was dated 3rd Sept 1888 (just 4 days after the murder of Polly Nichols and well before the influx of letters from the public which followed the double event of Eddowes/Stride). The letter suggested a method for catching the killer.
The second letter was sent just 3 days later on the 6th Sept 1888 (just prior to the murder of Annie Chapman). This letter suggested that police should "keep observations in passages of lonely houses." ??Peculiar considering where Chapman was found just a day or so later??

Anyway, here are a few points/questions...

1. Is this the same William Turner who operated The Blue Coat Boy Pub just a few yards away in Dorset Street?
2. Several known prostitutes resided at Turners address of 4 Paternoster Row (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=24615).
3. Turner wasnt merely an armchair sleuth living in Bournemouth or somewhere who jumped on the 'lettersbandwagon' when it became popular to do so. He lived in the heart of the area and wrote prior to most everyone else.

I find him rather intriguing. If anyone has any more information on William Turner of 4 Patenoster Row (including the full text of the letters), it would be much apprechiated!

Nicky

[The Good Michael]

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-pubsv.html

Interesting bit about a William Turner who ran The Weaver's Arms (scroll down to Weaver (arms or whatever). Connections to McCarthy there and apparently he left the area in 1889. Have no idea about the letters though. I'm sure Stuart will know.

Mike

Add: As far as I can tell, Paternoster Row connects Dorset Street in the general area of this pub...whatever that might mean, but perhaps 4 Paternoster is on the same crossing as 32 Dorset, where the pub was.

[lynn cates]

paper

Hello Nicole. Good to see you posting.

Do you know which paper they appeared in?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Nicole, excellent thoughts and an excellent idea for a thread. I've wondered if William Turner isn't Henry (aka William) Turner who'd recently lost his partner of 9 years, Martha Tabram aka Turner. But I like your suggestion here as well. John McCarthy was heavily tied in with the Blue Coat Boy, which was a haven for boxing matches throughout the 1880's, and McCarthy was up to his elbows in illicit boxing matches. It also would have been a hot spot for prostitutes as it was extremely close to the gates of Spitalsfield Markets and Dorset Street gained most of its custom from market porters.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[nicole]

Hi all,

I believe that it was proven to me that our WT and Marthas WT were not the same person. (William Turner was a popular name of that time).

Not sure which papers they were in, Lynn. My only reference to them was from the book JTR Scotland Yard Investigates pages 278 & 284 respectively.

And also, let's not forget...Annie Chapman was last seen heading down Paternoster Row after leaving the lodging house! !

Nicky

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Nicole,

I doubt Turner was the Ripper, but it's possible he knew who was. I'll check out SYI to refresh myself. Been a long time since I thought of this. But if 4 Paternoster Row was a lodging house, why do you expect a publican, who would surely have his own home, would be staying there?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[nicole]

Hi Tom,

Of course, it is most likely a coincidence that they had the same name. It is also possible that William Turner who owned The Blue Coat Boy owned 4 Paternoster Row too. Was it a lodging house or brothel? There is a William Turner that owned the Weavers Arms too in Hanbury Street. Probably different people but interesting non-the-less.

Nicole

[Robert]

There was a William Turner, docker, at a Dorset St lodging house in 1891.

[Tom_Wescott]

Nicole,

I see where you're coming from now. The address of 4 Paternoster Row came up in a thread I'd started elsewhere, because William Crossingham's brother-in-law, Danny Sullivan, lived at 4 Paternoster Row come 1891. William Crossingham married (some time later) a Margaret Sullivan who may have been Danny's sister and also a Whitechapel murders witness, though how I don't know. She apparently knew some of the people involved, such as Pearly Poll and Mary Kelly. I attempted to upload the clipping, but nothing I try to upload will work, so I'll include a link below. So did Crossingham or McCarthy own 4 Paternoster Row in 1888, or did William Turner? I think it's worth finding out.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=218753

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Nemo]

Quite bad quality I'm afraid...

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19496

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Nemo. But Yikes, I can't make it out. Is a full transcription available anywhere?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Nemo]

I only ever had those scans Tom -I think Stewart Evans would be the best bet for better photos

I'll look for my notes on the letters as I've had these for a while

The top bit of the first letter says...

...will very probably lead to the apprehension of the murderer on (the?) next attempt.
If you think this worth your notice..

...my plans and my reasons for thinking that they will be successful

Yours etc

The second letter is reasonably legible

[The Good Michael]

Quite bad quality I'm afraid...

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19496

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[ATTACH]15667[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]15668[/ATTACH]

Interesting that this is on the Brushfield end of Paternoster rather than the Dorset end. This is exactly the end that Annie Chapman was walking to when last seen.

Mike

[Bridewell]

The second letter was sent just 3 days later on the 6th Sept 1888 (just prior to the murder of Annie Chapman). This letter suggested that police should "keep observations in passages of lonely houses." ??Peculiar considering where Chapman was found just a day or so later??

Well a taunt to the authorities prior to rather than after the next killing would certainly carry more conviction. Interesting chain of thought.

[nicole]

Hi,

It wasn't a taunting type of letter...more of a 'heroic me' type. There is definitely more significance to it tho because of its timing.

Nicole