September 17th Letter

[Chris]

"mac-the-kipper"

Please say right away if you're only interested in playing games, and I won't waste any more time responding.

If the PRO really has carried out some tests and authenticated the letter, it's surely as much to your advantage as to anyone's that people should know about it.

So maybe you can give us some more details. Who told you about these tests, for example? And when were they supposed to have been carried out?

[Dan Norder]

Hey Chris,

There are, of course, the rumors that the letter was tested recently... supposedly with Patricia Cornwell controlling the purse strings, with all the unreliability that entails... but Mac seems to be claiming that texts were done at some time many years back before the letter was decided to be displayed. That seems to fly in the face of everything we'd already learned.

I fear this is just the latest attempt to bamboozle the field and the world in general and that we'll only get the details (or at least just as little as they think they can release to try to support their side) later on as part of some big push to sell another book with self-serving twaddle in it.

[Victor]

The numbering of the letter as 103B was an example of dodgy archiving in my opinion. The document in front of it was 103 and an 'A' had been added by hand. When this numbering occured is a mystery.

The hole-punch method of binding these documents is also a bit iffy, as it requires what is tantamount to damaging historical documents.

Earlier photographs of the letter show it pre-hole and pre-numbering, as Jonathan rightly mentioned.

The 25th Sept 'Dear Boss' letter is not stored in such a way. It has been slipped into a plastic wallet, requiring no holes of any sort.

In the mid-90s I did a short stint as a temp for the Ministry of Agriculture (MAFF as was, now DEFRA) and I basically did what is descibed in the first two paragraphs above - I took loose-leaf files, punched a hole in the corner of each page, sorted them into chronological order, and numbered them. Also when adding in missed or supplementary pages I'd do the "A" and "B" (etc.) bit too.

[Cap'n Jack]

I do wonder whether our own lack of expertise in this regard is letting us down? To wit, would it be unusual to find handwritten letters from the LVP that appeared to have been written with a 'biro'?

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks for those examples Ap.It would be useful to have a recent image of the letter in question to compare alongside.


Stewart,
I am not doubting your experience in the National Archives at all but I must admit my own,in a similar institution was rather differently experienced.I did a lot of research in 1990 at the Greater London Record Office,now part of Kew.This was into the ownership of a road alongside a cottage we were then living in in Ealing.We were not allowed to take anything other than pencils into the rooms,the same system of book ordering was in operation,and the tracing paper I used to trace an 1870 map had to be obtained from the desk.No bags were allowed in,they had to be left with other belongings in a locker outside.
Two archivists were keeping watch at all times from a raised dais .The number of people in the room at any one time was also restricted.It would therefore ,in those conditions,in my view, have been extremely difficult to be fiddling with papers or surreptitiously tampering with a file or inserting rogue documents.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Stewart P Evans]

Ball Point

I do wonder whether our own lack of expertise in this regard is letting us down? To wit, would it be unusual to find handwritten letters from the LVP that appeared to have been written with a 'biro'?

I'm not quite with you AP. The samples you have shown here look nothing like the '17 Sept 88' letter (below). I have seen all the original letters of 1888 as well as th one below - have you???



By the way, I never used the word 'biro', I said ball point which isn't quite the same thing if you recall the popular rollerball pens, usually with gel ink, used a lot in the 1980s. But whatever the ink and pen used - the mere content of this letter condemns it for what it is. But you believe whatever you wish to believe.

[mac-the-kipper]

I'm not quite with you AP. The samples you have shown here look nothing like the '17 Sept 88' letter (below). I have seen all the original letters of 1888 as well as the one below - have you???



[ATTACH]3313[/ATTACH].

But Dan would argue that you don't need to see any original documents, he knows what he knows and that's all he needs to know.

[mac-the-kipper]

"mac-the-kipper"

Please say right away if you're only interested in playing games, and I won't waste any more time responding.

If the PRO really has carried out some tests and authenticated the letter, it's surely as much to your advantage as to anyone's that people should know about it.

So maybe you can give us some more details. Who told you about these tests, for example? And when were they supposed to have been carried out?

Why is it to my advantage? I really don't care one jot either way. I was invited to give my recollections on this subject. As I have said many times in the past, I'm not a researcher I'm a musician. I was interviewed by some bigwig at the N/A last year (no, I can't remember his name), and was told that the letter stays where it is because they consider it genuine after the tests they themselves carried out. Go and find out yourself, he had an Italian name. Or better still, do as I have suggested many many times and wait til the results are published. I don't know anything other than what I've already posted time and again. If I had my way I'd set fire to the bloody thing and be done with it. So don't accuse me of playing games or lying.

[Chris]

I was interviewed by some bigwig at the N/A last year (no, I can't remember his name), and was told that the letter stays where it is because they consider it genuine after the tests they themselves carried out. Go and find out yourself, he had an Italian name. Or better still, do as I have suggested many many times and wait til the results are published.

I'm still not clear from your reply when these tests are supposed to have been carried out. But from what you've said, it sounds as though, after all, you're referring to the recent tests that have been mentioned elsewhere on the Internet.

If so, I am quite happy to wait until some proper information is released about the findings, rather than relying on partial information posted at second hand here and elsewhere.

But please reflect that you were the one who raised the issue of these "tests", and invited us to draw some conclusions from the fact that they had taken place. It's a bit inconsistent of you to respond as you have done when asked for more information.

[A L Morrison]

I did a lot of research in 1990 at the Greater London Record Office,now part of Kew.

I thought Greater London Record Office became London Metropolitan Archives and was based at Clerkenwell?

[Chris]

"mac-the-kipper"

By the way, please don't imply I have "accused you of lying", when I have done no such thing. There was quite enough of that sort of nonsense on the other website.

[Natalie Severn]

I thought Greater London Record Office became London Metropolitan Archives and was based at Clerkenwell?

Thanks for that information.The point I was making was that whether such archives are national or regional ,close security has existed ,to my personal knowledge,for many years.

[Chris]

Thanks for that information.The point I was making was that whether such archives are national or regional ,close security has existed ,to my personal knowledge,for many years.

It's a bit difficult to understand the point you're making. We know documents have been planted in the National Archives.

[Stewart P Evans]

Security

Thanks for that information.The point I was making was that whether such archives are national or regional ,close security has existed ,to my personal knowledge,for many years.

Norma, when I was doing research at the PRO in the 70s and 80s the security of the documents was not very good. And, of course, it was during these years that a lot was stolen. And, of course, the emphasis was always on theft rather than depositing anything. Hunched over the files with a page to be deposited hidden in your notepad, or inside jacket pocket, it would have been very easy at some moment, of maybe hours poring over the files, to slip in the page. I'm not just saying this for goodness sake - it would have been easily done.

[mac-the-kipper]

[QUOTE=Chris;43803]If this were true, QUOTE]



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