Sweet violets

[David Orsam]

There is also a possibility that no one heard Kelly sing about violets.

How is that even a possibility?

Only by (a) ignoring the inquest evidence and (b) ignoring the newspaper reports that you seem to be relying on to challenge the inquest evidence!

And what happened to the period of reflection?

[Mayerling]

Hi Freaky Jeff,
Interesting suggestion that the song was some sort of aphrodisiac!
I might counter though, by saying; what with alcohol having a depressive effect at times, and as there are several reports of Kelly being unhappy in the days before her death, the slightly more maudlin tune "A violet from Mothers grave" might equally have sprung to her lips.

I also read that article, and found dozens of versions of the song, but none of them seem to bear much relation to the original lyrics as printed in the PMG. They only seem to share one line, and try as I might I couldn't make the original words scan with the later versions. I'm not the greatest of singers, though. Is there any sheet music for Sweet Violets anywhere? Not that I could read it, but someone might be able to and see if it's the same song as the later, saucier versions.

Hi Joshua,

The lyrics from the PMG seem to be the same as those on the sheet music that David located. So I assume those are the original lyrics. On the other hand, they might not be the ones performed on state by the composer - he may have used that trick I mentioned, although it would seem hard to believe. I am aware though that had the lyrics been risqué, the policy of the Pall Mall Gazette under it's puritanical editor Mr. Stead would have prevented publishing the risqué version of the song at all.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Sheet music here:

http://www.horntip.com/html/books_&_MSS/1880s/1882_sweet_violets_(sheetmusic)/1882_sweet_violets_from_fritz_among_the_gypsies.pdf

The later versions were parodies I believe.

You may be right about the later versions as parodies. As I was reading the sheet music (from an American publishing house in Cincinatti, by the way), I noticed that the composer, Mr. Emmet, also sang the song (presumably on stage in his own shows). This was not unusual. In the 1890s the American song and comedy team of Harrigan and Hart did a series of plays with their own songs about Irish immigrants rising to social positions in the world of New York City in that period. Mr. Emmet not only had one about Gypsies, but one about being among the Irish.

Jeff

[Pierre]

You haven't answered my question as to whether you accept that they are obvious possibilities.

But, Pierre, it doesn't matter. Like you say, we can now enter a period of quiet reflection due to these "problematic" sources.

According to you, the two "obvious possibilities" are:

1. Kelly was heard to sing two songs about violets during the night.

There is a possibility. And there is a possibility that only Cox heard Kelly singing. There is also a possibility that no one heard Kelly sing about violets.

2. Kelly only sang one song about violets during the night and the press was confused about the correct title.

The possibility is rather weak. There are differences between the sources as to the statements about the time of the singing and the title of the song.

And there is also another problem, which you have not discussed. The Pall Mall Gazette wrote on the 10th November that the person who told the press about hearing Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time".

Another thing, David: I do not believe, like you do, in "the obvious".

[David Orsam]

They are obvious to you, obviously.

And possibilities are not established historical facts. They are merely possibilities.

Don´t you agree with that?

I am trying to establish historical facts. So I must throw away a lot of garbage. Sweet Violets may be such garbage.

You haven't answered my question as to whether you accept that they are obvious possibilities.

But, Pierre, it doesn't matter. Like you say, we can now enter a period of quiet reflection due to these "problematic" sources.

[David Orsam]

I also asked a question. Did you notice it?

Yes I did.

[David Orsam]

Is there any sheet music for Sweet Violets anywhere? Not that I could read it, but someone might be able to and see if it's the same song as the later, saucier versions.

Sheet music here:

http://www.horntip.com/html/books_&_MSS/1880s/1882_sweet_violets_(sheetmusic)/1882_sweet_violets_from_fritz_among_the_gypsies.pdf

The later versions were parodies I believe.

[Pierre]

No, that is just your own words.

I also asked a question. Did you notice it?

I wonder where Steve is, by the way. He would have noticed the question.

[Pierre]

Hurrah!

I assume that's the closest we will get from you to an admission "this thread has all gone pear shaped".

No, that is just your own words.

I also asked a question. Did you notice it?

[Joshua Rogan]

Hello everyone. It's your resident culture freak bringing something else out regarding the song "Sweet Violets".

Check out the page on it in "Wikipedia"

There will probably never be a way of guessing which of the two songs were sung (or if both were). However, given that "Sweet Violets" (again according to the article) sometimes was given risque words by some singers, it is now more possible that it was sung by Mary Kelly or some other prostitute that night to maybe break the ice or get into the mood for sex.

Anyway maybe this will help us consider the matter a bit more.

Jeff

Hi Freaky Jeff,
Interesting suggestion that the song was some sort of aphrodisiac!
I might counter though, by saying; what with alcohol having a depressive effect at times, and as there are several reports of Kelly being unhappy in the days before her death, the slightly more maudlin tune "A violet from Mothers grave" might equally have sprung to her lips.

I also read that article, and found dozens of versions of the song, but none of them seem to bear much relation to the original lyrics as printed in the PMG. They only seem to share one line, and try as I might I couldn't make the original words scan with the later versions. I'm not the greatest of singers, though. Is there any sheet music for Sweet Violets anywhere? Not that I could read it, but someone might be able to and see if it's the same song as the later, saucier versions.

[Pierre]

You describe them as "merely" my "interpretations" although what I said was that they are "two obvious possibilities".

Are you saying that they are not two obvious possibilities?

They are obvious to you, obviously.

And possibilities are not established historical facts. They are merely possibilities.

Don´t you agree with that?

I am trying to establish historical facts. So I must throw away a lot of garbage. Sweet Violets may be such garbage.

[David Orsam]

OK. I think we have reached some sort of platform now where we can reflect a bit on these sources and what they could mean.

I don´t think we can go much further with our different hypotheses for these sources. They are problematic at many points.

Hurrah!

I assume that's the closest we will get from you to an admission "this thread has all gone pear shaped".

[Pierre]

Thanks Joshua. I might add that in the Times itself it says "A woman..." rather than "I woman..".

OK. I think we have reached some sort of platform now where we can reflect a bit on these sources and what they could mean.

I don´t think we can go much further with our different hypotheses for these sources. They are problematic at many points.

By the way, has anyone read the dramatic work "Cain - A Mystery" by Lord Byron?

[David Orsam]

David, point 1 and 2 are merely your own interpretations. That is OK. But they do not help me and they can not answer my questions.

You describe them as "merely" my "interpretations" although what I said was that they are "two obvious possibilities".

Are you saying that they are not two obvious possibilities?

[David Orsam]

I woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" at 1 o'clock this morning.

Thanks Joshua. I might add that in the Times itself it says "A woman..." rather than "I woman..".