Sweet violets

[David Orsam]

Late source: There are statements from Cox about a man being in the room with Kelly at the time when Kelly was said to have been singing and singing "A Violet from Motherīs Grave".

Cox certainly said she saw a man going into Kelly's apartment with her at about midnight and shortly afterwards heard Kelly singing "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

But we already know that if the press reports are 100% accurate they are not describing the same thing because (a) the song title is different (b) the time is said to be 1am not midnight.

If, however, the press report was confused about the song and the time it could have been confused about anything else.

[Pierre]

Hi Steve,
Abel's wife in the play is called Zillah, the name in "Sweet Violets".

Great, Joshua! You happened to see this first.

So now there is a question: Was is the function of Zillah in the text of Byron?

[Elamarna]

Pierre


the Answer is clear.

your point is?

what does the first death and murder according to a religious text have to do with :
A) the thread, other than the point Joshua raised?
B) the case in General?

Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre

Not gone away, but am in middle of moving and my mother has just gone into residential care, so not posting much at present. I am however keeping a watch on what is posted.

The only question i saw was about a play by Byron, published I believe in 1821, and from what i know, it is the biblical story of Cain and Abel.

What relevance does it have to the thread?

My dear friend, I am not sure what you are attempting to "fit" into your theory at this stage, however i have hardly stopped laughing.

Steve

Steve!!! Great!!!

Good to see you, indeed. I see you are busy so I will not take your time.

And of course you spotted the question and the history of Cain and Abel directly.

Well, lord Byron wrote his version about Cain and Abel. And it is interesting. If you read it when you have the time you will see why.

Steve - who, according to the Hebrews, was the first dead and at the same time the first murdered person in the world?

Take care now.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,
Abel's wife in the play is called Zillah, the name in "Sweet Violets".

Thanks Joshua,

yet more clutching at literary strings to try and fashion some link.

it really is hilarious, something by the great Agatha would not be so complex, and this gets more like a story all the time.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Steve,
Abel's wife in the play is called Zillah, the name in "Sweet Violets".

[Pierre]

It seems most likely to me that Cox told McCarthy about hearing Mary singing, but not about having a man with her. So when McCarthy subsequently relayed her story to the press he was unable to say there was anyone with Mary.
Is that too obvious?

Things can seem likely and things can seem obvious but the past is gone and what we are making is history.

History is often made by the use of the likely and the obvious.

The past of serial killers is not often likely or obvious. If it was, we would not be here.

[John G]

It seems most likely to me that Cox told McCarthy about hearing Mary singing, but not about having a man with her. So when McCarthy subsequently relayed her story to the press he was unable to say there was anyone with Mary.
Is that too obvious?

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Pierre]

Okay Pierre, you know what, I'm going to assume for the purpose of this discussion that what you say is absolutely true and I'm not going to ask you for evidence to support it.

But if there was man with Kelly in the room at the time she was singing, how would Cox (or anyone who heard her singing) have known that there was a man in the room?

And if someone heard her singing but didn't know there was a man in the room wouldn't they have said to the press that they were "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time"?

In which case, there's no problem here, right?

Early sources: There are no statements from "a woman" or from "a person" about any man being with Kelly at the time when Kelly was said to have been singing "Sweet Violets".

Late source: There are statements from Cox about a man being in the room with Kelly at the time when Kelly was said to have been singing and singing "A Violet from Motherīs Grave".

We can say "if" as many times as we like but it does not help. The sources do not answer questions starting with that word.

[Joshua Rogan]

It seems most likely to me that Cox told McCarthy about hearing Mary singing, but not about having a man with her. So when McCarthy subsequently relayed her story to the press he was unable to say there was anyone with Mary.
Is that too obvious?

[Elamarna]

Pierre

Not gone away, but am in middle of moving and my mother has just gone into residential care, so not posting much at present. I am however keeping a watch on what is posted.

The only question i saw was about a play by Byron, published I believe in 1821, and from what i know, it is the biblical story of Cain and Abel.

What relevance does it have to the thread?

My dear friend, I am not sure what you are attempting to "fit" into your theory at this stage, however i have hardly stopped laughing.

Steve

[David Orsam]

Because when Cox heard Kelly sing the song "A Violet from Motherīs Grave" there was a man in the room with Kelly.

Okay Pierre, you know what, I'm going to assume for the purpose of this discussion that what you say is absolutely true and I'm not going to ask you for evidence to support it.

But if there was man with Kelly in the room at the time she was singing, how would Cox (or anyone who heard her singing) have known that there was a man in the room?

And if someone heard her singing but didn't know there was a man in the room wouldn't they have said to the press that they were "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time"?

In which case, there's no problem here, right?

[Pierre]

Why on earth is this a problem?

Because when Cox heard Kelly sing the song "A Violet from Motherīs Grave" there was a man in the room with Kelly.

[David Orsam]

Another thing, David: I do not believe, like you do, in "the obvious".

Firstly, I didn't actually say that I believe in "the obvious", whatever that means. What I put forward were two obvious possibilities. They are either obvious possibilities or they are not. Clearly they are obvious possibilities which is why you don't like them.

Secondly, if you refuse to believe what is obvious then you are going to end up believing very strange things such as that the letter from GOGMAGOG was a letter from the murderer predicting the date of the next murder and identity of the victim. You are going to end up thinking that the killer of Kelly escaped by walking through the wall. You are going to end up thinking that the killer's name can be found in pawn tickets. You are going to end up thinking that the killer planted a story in the press about Kelly singing a song which she didn't sing. You are going to end up thinking that two commissioners of police, and other senior police officers, were involved in a conspiracy to protect the murderer. And you are probably going to end up identifying the wrong person as the killer.

Things that are not obvious are generally not obvious for a reason.

[David Orsam]

And there is also another problem, which you have not discussed. The Pall Mall Gazette wrote on the 10th November that the person who told the press about hearing Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time".

Why on earth is this a problem?