Sweet violets

[Pcdunn]

Link to the full text of Cain, a Mystery Play (with notes) by Lord Bryon, available at archive.org.

http://www.archive.org/stream/lordbyronscainmy00byrouoft/lordbyronscainmy00byrouoft_djvu.txt

[Elamarna]

Yes, if you referred to the Hebrews. And who was the first one?

And the play Byron wrote was not entertainment but a mystery play.

Ok here we go again. I really don’t have time for this nonsense, but nonsense it is and so you know i will comment.

A play is an entertainment. that is not something which can be argued it is a simple fact.

You claim it is a "Mystery Play", historically that has a specific meaning as you must know. Normally they are deemed to be of medieval origin and were performed normally in a cycle of such plays.


"Cain" is published in 1821 far outside the time normally assigned to a "Mystery Play".
In any event these plays were performed to educate the masses about religion at a time when the majority of people could not read, and the Bible was only available to priests at the time.
They were used to celebrate and educate, they were the popular entertainment of the time; to suggest they were not is historically incorrect.

It is easy to read through online. So I am afraid that you are the one who will have the honour to enlighten everybody here when you have read it.

No My friend, if you are going to cite a source in an attempt to push a theory has you have done here it is your duty to explain.
it is not down to others to do so


There is a saying in English I do not mean to be rude here, just quoting the saying:

Put up or shut up

Meaning supply the evidence/source/interpretation or do not mention it.

Unfortunately it is not the first time you have attempted this approach, it disappoints me as it is certainly not what i expected from an academic scientist.

It is not entertainment but literature. And of course there are problems with it. But there are reasons to do it and to try and disprove a hypothesis connected to "Sweet Violets" so I am prepared to put some effort into it.

Wrong on so many counts Pierre, literature is and was entertainment, to suggest it is not is somewhat elitist is it not?

what we are doing here. Have a look at the text by Byron when you have the time, Steve. What is the function of Zillah in the text?

No you have the theory, tell us your interpretation of it and lets see if we agree or not with your point of view.

Sincerely disappointed in this approach but honestly not surprised

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

This thread is more interesting than I expected it to be when I began reading it.

Mr. McCarthy's statement in the The Times contains at least one error -- about the placement of MJK's severed breasts "on the table", (as we know from later sources that they were actually left closer to the body) -- so this in itself illustrates that newspaper accounts printed nearer the time of the investigation are not always accurate (and reliable.)

Although the press accounts may not be strictly accurate (according to what we now consider the most reliable sources) they may still accurately report what McCarthy said. Interestingly, he said that originally he thought the objects on the table were something else, but now knew they were breasts (paraphrased, from memory). Perhaps changing his opinion between looking through the window and breaking the door down, or identifying the remains.

I would also note that McCarthy is possibly wrong when he said he didn't think MJK had taken a man into her room, but as this is perhaps his opinion only, I might cut him some slack here.

As I noted in a previous post, he may not have been told about the man by Cox. Also, as Landlord, he was probably at risk of prosecution if he admitted knowing that his tenants were bringing men back to their rooms for immoral purposes - he also said he had only learned after the murder that Kelly walked the streets.

[David Orsam]

The question is if that is what the killer thought as well.

Erm, hold on, why is the question about what the killer thought of the song "Sweet Violets"? What does the killer have to do with this song?

[David Orsam]

Have a look at the text by Byron when you have the time, Steve. What is the function of Zillah in the text?

So Steve has to spend his time reading a old play which he has no interest in reading in order the work out the function of a character called "Zillah" in the text and he should do so because the name "Zillah" happens to appear in a single repeated line in the song "Sweet Violets" which Mary Kelly may or may not have sung and, even if she did, cannot possibly have any significance and if she did not it's not worth bothering about because the newspapers must have made a mistake. Is that what you are saying?

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to stop playing games and if you think there is any significance in the song "Sweet Violets" or the name of "Zillah" just tell us what it is and get it over with?

[Pierre]

That's basically what I've been saying to you all along.

At least you are learning something on here.

You seem to be confused again, David.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Pcdunn;390291]

This thread is more interesting than I expected it to be when I began reading it.

Hi PcDunn,

Good to hear.

Mr. McCarthy's statement in the The Times contains at least one error -- about the placement of MJK's severed breasts "on the table", (as we know from later sources that they were actually left closer to the body) -- so this in itself illustrates that newspaper accounts printed nearer the time of the investigation are not always accurate (and reliable.) I would also note that McCarthy is possibly wrong when he said he didn't think MJK had taken a man into her room, but as this is perhaps his opinion only, I might cut him some slack here.

As for Lord Bryon! Hurray for English literature!

Yes, one may agree. The question is if that is what the killer thought as well.

While I have not read the play "Cain, a Mystery", I have learned that it deals with Cain, the eldest son of Adam and Eve, objecting that he has nothing to praise God for, because he is "fated to die." Cain feels that death is a mystery, and he is afraid of what he does not know. Therefore, believing that Death is "an anthromorphic entity", to quote the summary at Amazon, he keeps watch in an effort to see Death arrive. Bryon's play is from Cain's viewpoint. The most interesting thing I gleaned from the summary was that it is Lucifier who gives Cain the knowledge of Death.

Cain, of course, is the first murderer, according to the Bible-- having murdered his own brother Abel in a fit of jealous rage. Presumably that makes Abel the first murder victim?

Abel is the first murder victim in the world. You are right.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

you can not classify some sources as being better than others. There are rules for closeness in time and place and source hierarchies but they do not automatically classify all sources of one particular kind into one category. It is always a matter of analyse and interpretation.

That's basically what I've been saying to you all along.

At least you are learning something on here.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;390292]

My dear Pierre

I was referring to your point

"Steve - who, according to the Hebrews, was the first dead and at the same time the first murdered person in the world?"


So yes we were talking about an old Hebrew text, the Byron version is just a 19th century entertainment based on said text.

Yes, if you referred to the Hebrews. And Abel was the first murdered person in the world.

And the play Byron wrote was not entertainment but a mystery play.

Having not read the play, and having no intention of doing so, I have no idea as to the answer to your question, please enlighten me.

It is easy to read through online. So I am afraid that you are the one who will have the honour to enlighten everybody here when you have read it.

With all due respect Pierre, attempting to link history to popular entertainment, is open to all forms of problems, it is in no way scientific.

It is not entertainment but literature. And of course there are problems with it. But there are reasons to do it and to try and disprove a hypothesis connected to "Sweet Violets" so I am prepared to put some effort into it.

We are back on the personal interpretation of literary sources, which people are bound to disagree on, rather pointless, can prove nor disprove anything.

No, that is not what we are doing here. Have a look at the text by Byron when you have the time, Steve. What is the function of Zillah in the text?

Kind regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Steve,

the text of Byron is a play from the 19th Century and not an old Hebrew text.

What is the function of Zillah in the text?

Regards, Pierre

My dear Pierre

I was referring to your point

"Steve - who, according to the Hebrews, was the first dead and at the same time the first murdered person in the world?"


So yes we were talking about an old Hebrew text, the Byron version is just a 19th century entertainment based on said text.

Having not read the play, and having no intention of doing so, I have no idea as to the answer to your question, please enlighten me.

With all due respect Pierre, attempting to link history to popular entertainment, is open to all forms of problems, it is in no way scientific.
We are back on the personal interpretation of literary sources, which people are bound to disagree on, rather pointless, can prove nor disprove anything.

Steve

[Pcdunn]

This thread is more interesting than I expected it to be when I began reading it.

Mr. McCarthy's statement in the The Times contains at least one error -- about the placement of MJK's severed breasts "on the table", (as we know from later sources that they were actually left closer to the body) -- so this in itself illustrates that newspaper accounts printed nearer the time of the investigation are not always accurate (and reliable.) I would also note that McCarthy is possibly wrong when he said he didn't think MJK had taken a man into her room, but as this is perhaps his opinion only, I might cut him some slack here.

As for Lord Bryon! Hurray for English literature! While I have not read the play "Cain, a Mystery", I have learned that it deals with Cain, the eldest son of Adam and Eve, objecting that he has nothing to praise God for, because he is "fated to die." Cain feels that death is a mystery, and he is afraid of what he does not know. Therefore, believing that Death is "an anthromorphic entity", to quote the summary at Amazon, he keeps watch in an effort to see Death arrive. Bryon's play is from Cain's viewpoint. The most interesting thing I gleaned from the summary was that it is Lucifier who gives Cain the knowledge of Death.

Cain, of course, is the first murderer, according to the Bible-- having murdered his own brother Abel in a fit of jealous rage. Presumably that makes Abel the first murder victim?

[Pierre]

If I'm confused about anything it's that, after hundreds if not thousands of posts in which you have been telling us that newspaper reports have very low validity and can be ignored, we must now suddenly treat them as gospel which should be preferred to witness evidence in the "official" sources.

They should certainly not be "treated as gospel". You must use source criticism on any source and you can not classify some sources as being better than others. There are rules for closeness in time and place and source hierarchies but they do not automatically classify all sources of one particular kind into one category. It is always a matter of analyse and interpretation.

[David Orsam]

There is a risk that you hypothesize confusion because of your own confusion. Note that I say "a risk". I do not say it is a fact.

If I'm confused about anything it's that, after hundreds if not thousands of posts in which you have been telling us that newspaper reports have very low validity and can be ignored, we must now suddenly treat them as gospel which should be preferred to witness evidence in the "official" sources.

[Pierre]

Cox certainly said she saw a man going into Kelly's apartment with her at about midnight and shortly afterwards heard Kelly singing "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

But we already know that if the press reports are 100% accurate they are not describing the same thing because (a) the song title is different (b) the time is said to be 1am not midnight.

If, however, the press report was confused about the song and the time it could have been confused about anything else.

There is a risk that you hypothesize confusion because of your own confusion. Note that I say "a risk". I do not say it is a fact.

[Pierre]

Pierre


the Answer is clear.

your point is?

what does the first death and murder according to a religious text have to do with :
A) the thread, other than the point Joshua raised?
B) the case in General?

Steve

Steve,

the text of Byron is a play from the 19th Century and not an old Hebrew text.

What is the function of Zillah in the text?

Regards, Pierre