Sweet violets

[David Orsam]

Who is anyone?

Well Pierre, without being rude, I mean anyone other than you.

No-one else has ever noticed a link between Sweet Violets and Byron's play and then between Byron's play and the murder. So what was the killer hoping to achieve?

Was he, in 1888, sending you a personal message for you to read in 2016?

[David Orsam]

And you are aware that some Zillahs were more popular than others and that they were not normal, right?

What do you mean by saying "some Zillahs were more popular than others" and that they were "not normal"?

[David Orsam]

Of course it was predicted that Kelly should be murdered on 9th November 1888. Of course it was predicted that there should be a witness.

Perhaps you believe that the killer acted on instinct and that he was stupid. You may go back to that idea, there is a lot of such ideas.

I will not discuss a stupid killer acting on instinct. So you must discuss that type of killer with those who believe in those ideas.

Yes, it did. And that is fine.

I don't think you've quite understood. I'm saying that had the killer inserted into the press on 10 November a reference to a character in a play who said "Oh Murder" (knowing that this had been said on 9 November) that would have been impressive. But he didn't manage it.

[Pierre]

But Pierre how do you know - how does anyone know - that the importance of the song Sweet Violets is in the name of Zillah?

Perhaps you have understood that I am working with an hypothesis about the sources giving the information that Kelly was singing a song called "Sweet Violets". As you also may understand, hypotheses are not established historical facts. They are tools for establishing historical facts.

And then why would anyone automatically reference Byron's play?

You will probably have all the answers to that question you need to discuss it with yourself already.

You are aware that Zillah was a much more popular normal woman's name than it is today right?

Of course. And you are aware that some Zillahs were more popular than others and that they were not normal, right?

So why would anyone first think that Zillah was important in the lyrics of Sweet Violets and THEN appreciate that it's a reference to the Byron's play rather than, say, the Old Testament or just a normal woman's name?

Who is anyone? And why would anyone construct ordinal scales to compare importance of old text?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;390336]

But it wasn't a prediction was it?

Of course it was predicted that Kelly should be murdered on 9th November 1888. Of course it was predicted that there should be a witness.

Perhaps you believe that the killer acted on instinct and that he was stupid. You may go back to that idea, there is a lot of such ideas.

I will not discuss a stupid killer acting on instinct. So you must discuss that type of killer with those who believe in those ideas.

The title of the song appeared in the press after the murder.

Yes, it did. And that is fine.

[David Orsam]

It is the function of finding a murder victim that is significant.

But Pierre how do you know - how does anyone know - that the importance of the song Sweet Violets is in the name of Zillah? And then why would anyone automatically reference Byron's play?

You are aware that Zillah was a much more popular normal woman's name than it is today right?

So why would anyone first think that Zillah was important in the lyrics of Sweet Violets and THEN appreciate that it's a reference to the Byron's play rather than, say, the Old Testament or just a normal woman's name?

[David Orsam]

The killer could never have predicted what a witness to the murder of Kelly would have exclaimed or even if there would be any exclamation at all.

But it wasn't a prediction was it?

The title of the song appeared in the press after the murder.

[Pierre]

I suppose had Zillah actually said the words "Oh, Murder!" in the play you might have found an interesting if tenuous connection with the murder of Kelly. But, alas, she didn't and you have nothing.

The killer could never have predicted what a witness to the murder of Kelly would have exclaimed or even if there would be any exclamation at all.

It is the function of finding a murder victim that is significant.

For a witness who has not seen a murder victim in her life, it is the first murder victim in her world.

And on that day, she should have recieved the roses. It was her birthday.

[David Orsam]

Oh, Murder!

I suppose had Zillah actually said the words "Oh, Murder!" in the play you might have found an interesting if tenuous connection with the murder of Kelly. But, alas, she didn't and you have nothing.

[David Orsam]

For a hypothesis about the reference of Sweet Violets to the press having been an information from the killer

Wouldn't it make more sense to set out this hypothesis first? You've barely mentioned it in this thread, let alone explained it.

How do you say it's possible that the reference in Sweet Violets in the press could have been "an information from the killer"?

I thought you were going through a period of reflection about this due to the "problematic" sources.

Is that period of reflection now over?

[David Orsam]

The important thing is Zillah. My task now is simply to see now if anyone can find out the function of Zillah in Cain - A Mystery.

Forgive me Pierre, but what is the connection between the Zillah of Sweet Violets and the Zillah in Cain - A Mystery?

You are aware, I assume, that Zillah was one of the wives of Lamech in the Old Testament, thus pre-dating Lord Byron's play.

Zillah was just a woman's name in a song. Why do you think it has any meaning?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Pcdunn;390319]

Zillah in the play finds Cain standing above the body of the slain Abel, and alerts the rest of her family that "Death is in the world!"

Oh, Murder!

[Pierre]

Ok here we go again. I really don’t have time for this nonsense, but nonsense it is and so you know i will comment.

A play is an entertainment. that is not something which can be argued it is a simple fact.

You claim it is a "Mystery Play", historically that has a specific meaning as you must know. Normally they are deemed to be of medieval origin and were performed normally in a cycle of such plays.

"Cain" is published in 1821 far outside the time normally assigned to a "Mystery Play".

In any event these plays were performed to educate the masses about religion at a time when the majority of people could not read, and the Bible was only available to priests at the time.

They were used to celebrate and educate, they were the popular entertainment of the time; to suggest they were not is historically incorrect.

Hi Steve,

It is not a theatre play made for entertainment. Byron is alluding to the mystery plays in many ways in this drama and it is a closet drama, which was not intended to be performed on the stage.

No My friend, if you are going to cite a source in an attempt to push a theory has you have done here it is your duty to explain.
it is not down to others to do so

There is a saying in English I do not mean to be rude here, just quoting the saying:

Put up or shut up

Meaning supply the evidence/source/interpretation or do not mention it.

Unfortunately it is not the first time you have attempted this approach, it disappoints me as it is certainly not what i expected from an academic scientist.

Wrong on so many counts Pierre, literature is and was entertainment, to suggest it is not is somewhat elitist is it not?

No you have the theory, tell us your interpretation of it and lets see if we agree or not with your point of view.

Sincerely disappointed in this approach but honestly not surprised

Steve

If you read about closet dramas you will see that they usually are not performed on stage and therefore are not theatrical entertainment.

But all of that does not matter. The important thing is Zillah. My task now is simply to see now if anyone can find out the function of Zillah in Cain - A Mystery.

For a hypothesis about the reference of Sweet Violets to the press having been an information from the killer, the lyrics must have an important substantial significance for the killer. If it doesn´t, the correlation is spurious.

So Zillah must have a meaning, the flowers must have a meaning and the actions described in the lyrics must have a meaning.

I would like to dismiss all that - but when I construct a hypothesis I go all the way with it to test it. Therefore I must at first assume that this is what he did.

And to be able to understand if it did have a meaning for him, and it must also be a meaning that could be understood by the police and others who were thought to be the recipients of the communication, we must understand his world, and then we must understand a bit about 19th Century literature. (I believe that you know a lot about this, and I know very little).

How could we understand a killer in 1888 if we do not understand the cultural world he lived in?

Regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

Hi Pierre,

Having already had the "fun" months ago of perusing one of the dullest examples of Victorian serious drama (Tennyson's "Queen Mary") I shall now avoid the additional fun of reading Byron's "Cain". Interesting though that "Zillah" is his wife and the discoverer of "Abel's" body in that text.

So in a sense you have managed to link Byron's play and murder and "Sweet Violets". As Steve mentions, it is reminiscent of one of Dame Agatha Christie's mystery novels (her use of nursery rhyme poetry in "Ten Little Indians" comes to mind).

By the way, you are aware that the political liberal (for 1820) Byron hated the reactionary government of Home Secretary Lord Sidmouth and his fellow government ministers, and once wrote some lines about "meeting murder on the way...he looked a lot like Castlereagh".

I will continue following this literary turn. Next, Shelley's poetic drama masterpiece "The Cenci" (based on an actual late Renaissance murder in Italy involving incest and centered around Beatrice Cenci?). Or the best remembered novel of Byron's friend, Mary Shelley, "The New Prometheus" (you all recall the other name of it - actually the name of the person who created the monster). There are some aspects of "The New Prometheus" involving events of the Regency period. I believe an innocent servant is blamed for a killing in the story and hanged protesting her innocence - and that (if I am correct about it) is supposed to be based on the trial, conviction, and execution of Eliza Fenning for attempting to poison her employer's family with arsenic filled dumplings in 1815.

Jumping ahead to Tennyson's contemporary there is Browning's poetic crime novel "The Rose and the Ring" based on another old Italian murder. And Wilkie Collins certainly used actual cases - elements of the "Road Murder Mystery" ended up in his classic "The Moonstone" as well as "The Northumberland Street Outrage" also from 1860-61.

This is actually entertaining to consider. I don't think it will get us anywhere, but let's see what happens.

Jeff

[Pcdunn]

Zillah in the play finds Cain standing above the body of the slain Abel, and alerts the rest of her family that "Death is in the world!"

She was Abel's wife, and therefore mourns his loss.