Sweet violets

[David Orsam]

What do you mean byt "the hypothesis if seriously flawed because she either sang....or both?" "Because" is no evidence, it is only your own idea, David.

If you care to read my post properly with some care and attention you will see that I said that this is "the argument against you".

[David Orsam]

All my questions are connected to hypotheses. But you didnīt understand that.

I understood it but you clearly didn't because when I said in #117: "As I understand your own position, you are saying that the press report about Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was wrong and she never sang that song.", your response in #126 was "I am not saying that but asking if that was the case."

[Pierre]

No you most certainly did not. All you did was ask the question: "Did Kelly even sing it?"

It was only later in #41 that you stated "I am suggesting that Kelly never sung the song."

Indeed, when I said in #117: "As I understand your own position, you are saying that the press report about Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was wrong and she never sang that song.", your response in #126 was "I am not saying that but asking if that was the case."

So you did not make it clear at all and you seem to be saying whatever suits you at any particular time.

In any case, even if your hypothesis is that Kelly did not sing "Sweet Violets", the argument against you is that your hypothesis is seriously flawed because she either sang "Sweet Violets" or "A Violet From Mother's Grave" or both. While you may not like this being said, you cannot change history Pierre.

All my questions are connected to hypotheses. But you didnīt understand that.

What do you mean byt "the hypothesis if seriously flawed because she either sang....or both?" "Because" is no evidence, it is only your own idea, David.

History is easy to change. The past can never be changed.

[David Orsam]

Protecting the newspapers.

Says the person who has spent most of this thread telling us that the Pall Mall Gazette could not possibly have confused two songs with similar lyrics!!

[David Orsam]

The hypothesis is that Kelly did not sing that song. I made this clear in the first post.

No you most certainly did not. All you did was ask the question: "Did Kelly even sing it?"

It was only later in #41 that you stated "I am suggesting that Kelly never sung the song."

Indeed, when I said in #117: "As I understand your own position, you are saying that the press report about Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was wrong and she never sang that song.", your response in #126 was "I am not saying that but asking if that was the case."

So you did not make it clear at all and you seem to be saying whatever suits you at any particular time.

In any case, even if your hypothesis is that Kelly did not sing "Sweet Violets", the argument against you is that your hypothesis is seriously flawed because she either sang "Sweet Violets" or "A Violet From Mother's Grave" or both. While you may not like this being said, you cannot change history Pierre.

[Pierre]

Well, if we are discussing Kelly singing it's only because you started a thread with the title of a song that Kelly was reported to have been singing!!!

No. It is because you want to normalize the sources containing information about Sweet Violets.

The hypothesis is that Kelly did not sing that song. I made this clear in the first post.

But you go on about what songs you thought Kelly sang and knew.

Normalizing the sources. Protecting the newspapers. Protecting the discourse.

[David Orsam]

I think there is to much talk about about Kelly singing that night and to little discussion about other things.

Kelly was not a singer but a murder victim.

Well, if we are discussing Kelly singing it's only because you started a thread with the title of a song that Kelly was reported to have been singing!!!

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=MysterySinger;390490]

For the purposes of Pierre's hypothesis (or at least my interpretation of it) it is irrelevant whether Kelly sang "Sweet Violets", "A Violet I Plucked From Mother's Grave" or any song at all, The key is that the press were informed by someone unknown that she was singing "Sweet Violets" and the lyrics to that song contain one or more clues.

Thank you MysterySinger.

She should have received the roses or the real violets. It was her birthday.

Best wishes, Pierre

[David Orsam]

Another interesting example - if you are interested in how serial killers communicate with the press and the police - is this: http://www.tabloidcolumn.com/btk-puzzle.html

The latter source could be compared to the mustard tin with the two pawn tickets found in Mitre Square.

There is absolutely no comparison between an obviously coded message provided by a killer to the police/media and the pawn tickets found next to Eddowes' body for which there was actual sworn testimony that they were in the possession of Eddowes before she was murdered.

[David Orsam]

I will add here that you should read the poem "Oh! Death to Nancy" by the BTK-killer and examine the reference this poem has. It is an example of serial killer communication.

This might be a useful comparison if the killer had written the song "Sweet Violets", Pierre, but it had been composed some years before and then reportedly sung by Kelly on the night of her death.

So there is absolutely no comparison at all here. But even if one can properly compare the poem "Oh! Death to Nancy" with "Sweet Violets", there is as much, if not more, of a link in "Sweet Violets" to Samuel Miller's wife, or to the Old Testament, than there is to Byron's long-forgotten and obscure play.

[Pierre]

I don't have any "problem" at all considering that I have repeatedly stated that one of the two most obvious explanations is that Kelly was heard to be singing BOTH "A Violet From Mother's Grave" AND "Sweet Violets" on the night of the murder. She was singing for an hour. Perhaps she liked to sing songs about violets.

It's not a problem.

I think there is to much talk about about Kelly singing that night and to little discussion about other things.

Kelly was not a singer but a murder victim.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Caligo Umbrator;390424]

Hi, Pierre.

From the information you have so far been willing to supply, it is unclear what led you to suppose that Byron's book, published in 1821, had any distinct and vital connection to the 1888 murders or the issuance, in the Pall Mall Gazette that same year, of the lyrics to 'Sweet Violets', other than the one name these two works share: 'Zillah'.

Hi Caligo.

The connection to Cain - A Mystery is 1. the name Zillah and that 2. Zillah finds the first murder victim in history.

I will add here that you should read the poem "Oh! Death to Nancy" by the BTK-killer and examine the reference this poem has. It is an example of serial killer communication.

Another interesting example - if you are interested in how serial killers communicate with the press and the police - is this: http://www.tabloidcolumn.com/btk-puzzle.html

The latter source could be compared to the mustard tin with the two pawn tickets found in Mitre Square.

Q.1, Is it something contained within Byron's book that led you to the discovery of the later song publication or did the song lead you to the book?

Again: The connection to Cain - A Mystery is the name Zillah and that Zillah finds the first murder victim in history.

Q.2, It seems clear from your statements on this matter that you believe there is, included within the book, something which echoes or confirms another source you have. What is that correlative information?

And again: The connection to Cain - A Mystery is the name Zillah and that Zillah finds the first murder victim in history.

The correlative information consists of biographical sources.

Q.3, On many of the threads you have started or engaged in, you state you have an 'external source' which you are trying to resolve or verify with other information. When you talk about this source, is it a single document that you are referring to or do you have multiple and separate sources that you have brought together and which are unknown to other researchers?

Biographical sources unknown to other researchers.

Regards, Pierre

[Wickerman]

I have a copy of the Daily Chronicle report of 10 Nov 1888 on the Kelly murder and neither Pickett nor the song "Violet From Mother's Grave" is mentioned.

Interesting, if you see how the press quotes are given in this book you would understand why I said "appears to be". It is not directly referenced, but the quote previous to this one is credited as being from the Daily Chronicle.
It is not unusual to omit the name of the source in a second quote if it is given in the first quote, providing the two quotes are given together.

Then I don't know what the source is David.

[GUT]

Sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses,
Ladened with fragrance, sparkling with the dew,
Sweet violets, from mossy dell and rivulet
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them, my darling, for you.

Oh, stay! go not away,
Violets are blooming love for you alone.
Oh! sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them and brought them for you.

Sweet violets, resting in beauty's bower,
Crouched all unnoticed I did pluck that flower,
Sweet violets, looking up to Heaven,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them and brought them for you.

Now this is seriously freaky:

Sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses,
Ladened with fragrance, sparkling with the dew,
Sweet violets, from mossy dell and rivulet
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them, my darling, for you.

Oh, stay! go not away,
Violets are blooming love for you alone.
Oh! sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them and brought them for you.

Sweet violets, resting in beauty's bower,
Crouched all unnoticed I did pluck that flower,
Sweet violets, looking up to Heaven,
Zillah, darling one, I plucked them and brought them for you.

Samuel miller

He's in the song!

Along with his wife.

What do you make of this Pierre? I'm guessing you've changed horses now.

Well I can see a B and a S so it must fit Pierre's theory.

[GUT]

Hi, Steve.

I asked much the same back in post #245, on this thread.
I'm wholly disappointed to have discovered that, as yet, there is no response.

Yours, Caligo

You aren't surprised are you?