Sweet violets

[Pierre]

Hi Steve,
Abel's wife in the play is called Zillah, the name in "Sweet Violets".

Great, Joshua! You happened to see this first.

So now there is a question: Was is the function of Zillah in the text of Byron?

[David Orsam]

Late source: There are statements from Cox about a man being in the room with Kelly at the time when Kelly was said to have been singing and singing "A Violet from Motherīs Grave".

Cox certainly said she saw a man going into Kelly's apartment with her at about midnight and shortly afterwards heard Kelly singing "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

But we already know that if the press reports are 100% accurate they are not describing the same thing because (a) the song title is different (b) the time is said to be 1am not midnight.

If, however, the press report was confused about the song and the time it could have been confused about anything else.

[Pierre]

Pierre


the Answer is clear.

your point is?

what does the first death and murder according to a religious text have to do with :
A) the thread, other than the point Joshua raised?
B) the case in General?

Steve

Steve,

the text of Byron is a play from the 19th Century and not an old Hebrew text.

What is the function of Zillah in the text?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Cox certainly said she saw a man going into Kelly's apartment with her at about midnight and shortly afterwards heard Kelly singing "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

But we already know that if the press reports are 100% accurate they are not describing the same thing because (a) the song title is different (b) the time is said to be 1am not midnight.

If, however, the press report was confused about the song and the time it could have been confused about anything else.

There is a risk that you hypothesize confusion because of your own confusion. Note that I say "a risk". I do not say it is a fact.

[David Orsam]

There is a risk that you hypothesize confusion because of your own confusion. Note that I say "a risk". I do not say it is a fact.

If I'm confused about anything it's that, after hundreds if not thousands of posts in which you have been telling us that newspaper reports have very low validity and can be ignored, we must now suddenly treat them as gospel which should be preferred to witness evidence in the "official" sources.

[Pierre]

If I'm confused about anything it's that, after hundreds if not thousands of posts in which you have been telling us that newspaper reports have very low validity and can be ignored, we must now suddenly treat them as gospel which should be preferred to witness evidence in the "official" sources.

They should certainly not be "treated as gospel". You must use source criticism on any source and you can not classify some sources as being better than others. There are rules for closeness in time and place and source hierarchies but they do not automatically classify all sources of one particular kind into one category. It is always a matter of analyse and interpretation.

[Pcdunn]

This thread is more interesting than I expected it to be when I began reading it.

Mr. McCarthy's statement in the The Times contains at least one error -- about the placement of MJK's severed breasts "on the table", (as we know from later sources that they were actually left closer to the body) -- so this in itself illustrates that newspaper accounts printed nearer the time of the investigation are not always accurate (and reliable.) I would also note that McCarthy is possibly wrong when he said he didn't think MJK had taken a man into her room, but as this is perhaps his opinion only, I might cut him some slack here.

As for Lord Bryon! Hurray for English literature! While I have not read the play "Cain, a Mystery", I have learned that it deals with Cain, the eldest son of Adam and Eve, objecting that he has nothing to praise God for, because he is "fated to die." Cain feels that death is a mystery, and he is afraid of what he does not know. Therefore, believing that Death is "an anthromorphic entity", to quote the summary at Amazon, he keeps watch in an effort to see Death arrive. Bryon's play is from Cain's viewpoint. The most interesting thing I gleaned from the summary was that it is Lucifier who gives Cain the knowledge of Death.

Cain, of course, is the first murderer, according to the Bible-- having murdered his own brother Abel in a fit of jealous rage. Presumably that makes Abel the first murder victim?

[Elamarna]

Steve,

the text of Byron is a play from the 19th Century and not an old Hebrew text.

What is the function of Zillah in the text?

Regards, Pierre

My dear Pierre

I was referring to your point

"Steve - who, according to the Hebrews, was the first dead and at the same time the first murdered person in the world?"


So yes we were talking about an old Hebrew text, the Byron version is just a 19th century entertainment based on said text.

Having not read the play, and having no intention of doing so, I have no idea as to the answer to your question, please enlighten me.

With all due respect Pierre, attempting to link history to popular entertainment, is open to all forms of problems, it is in no way scientific.
We are back on the personal interpretation of literary sources, which people are bound to disagree on, rather pointless, can prove nor disprove anything.

Steve

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;390292]

My dear Pierre

I was referring to your point

"Steve - who, according to the Hebrews, was the first dead and at the same time the first murdered person in the world?"


So yes we were talking about an old Hebrew text, the Byron version is just a 19th century entertainment based on said text.

Yes, if you referred to the Hebrews. And Abel was the first murdered person in the world.

And the play Byron wrote was not entertainment but a mystery play.

Having not read the play, and having no intention of doing so, I have no idea as to the answer to your question, please enlighten me.

It is easy to read through online. So I am afraid that you are the one who will have the honour to enlighten everybody here when you have read it.

With all due respect Pierre, attempting to link history to popular entertainment, is open to all forms of problems, it is in no way scientific.

It is not entertainment but literature. And of course there are problems with it. But there are reasons to do it and to try and disprove a hypothesis connected to "Sweet Violets" so I am prepared to put some effort into it.

We are back on the personal interpretation of literary sources, which people are bound to disagree on, rather pointless, can prove nor disprove anything.

No, that is not what we are doing here. Have a look at the text by Byron when you have the time, Steve. What is the function of Zillah in the text?

Kind regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

you can not classify some sources as being better than others. There are rules for closeness in time and place and source hierarchies but they do not automatically classify all sources of one particular kind into one category. It is always a matter of analyse and interpretation.

That's basically what I've been saying to you all along.

At least you are learning something on here.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Pcdunn;390291]

This thread is more interesting than I expected it to be when I began reading it.

Hi PcDunn,

Good to hear.

Mr. McCarthy's statement in the The Times contains at least one error -- about the placement of MJK's severed breasts "on the table", (as we know from later sources that they were actually left closer to the body) -- so this in itself illustrates that newspaper accounts printed nearer the time of the investigation are not always accurate (and reliable.) I would also note that McCarthy is possibly wrong when he said he didn't think MJK had taken a man into her room, but as this is perhaps his opinion only, I might cut him some slack here.

As for Lord Bryon! Hurray for English literature!

Yes, one may agree. The question is if that is what the killer thought as well.

While I have not read the play "Cain, a Mystery", I have learned that it deals with Cain, the eldest son of Adam and Eve, objecting that he has nothing to praise God for, because he is "fated to die." Cain feels that death is a mystery, and he is afraid of what he does not know. Therefore, believing that Death is "an anthromorphic entity", to quote the summary at Amazon, he keeps watch in an effort to see Death arrive. Bryon's play is from Cain's viewpoint. The most interesting thing I gleaned from the summary was that it is Lucifier who gives Cain the knowledge of Death.

Cain, of course, is the first murderer, according to the Bible-- having murdered his own brother Abel in a fit of jealous rage. Presumably that makes Abel the first murder victim?

Abel is the first murder victim in the world. You are right.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

That's basically what I've been saying to you all along.

At least you are learning something on here.

You seem to be confused again, David.

[David Orsam]

Have a look at the text by Byron when you have the time, Steve. What is the function of Zillah in the text?

So Steve has to spend his time reading a old play which he has no interest in reading in order the work out the function of a character called "Zillah" in the text and he should do so because the name "Zillah" happens to appear in a single repeated line in the song "Sweet Violets" which Mary Kelly may or may not have sung and, even if she did, cannot possibly have any significance and if she did not it's not worth bothering about because the newspapers must have made a mistake. Is that what you are saying?

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to stop playing games and if you think there is any significance in the song "Sweet Violets" or the name of "Zillah" just tell us what it is and get it over with?

[David Orsam]

The question is if that is what the killer thought as well.

Erm, hold on, why is the question about what the killer thought of the song "Sweet Violets"? What does the killer have to do with this song?

[Joshua Rogan]

This thread is more interesting than I expected it to be when I began reading it.

Mr. McCarthy's statement in the The Times contains at least one error -- about the placement of MJK's severed breasts "on the table", (as we know from later sources that they were actually left closer to the body) -- so this in itself illustrates that newspaper accounts printed nearer the time of the investigation are not always accurate (and reliable.)

Although the press accounts may not be strictly accurate (according to what we now consider the most reliable sources) they may still accurately report what McCarthy said. Interestingly, he said that originally he thought the objects on the table were something else, but now knew they were breasts (paraphrased, from memory). Perhaps changing his opinion between looking through the window and breaking the door down, or identifying the remains.

I would also note that McCarthy is possibly wrong when he said he didn't think MJK had taken a man into her room, but as this is perhaps his opinion only, I might cut him some slack here.

As I noted in a previous post, he may not have been told about the man by Cox. Also, as Landlord, he was probably at risk of prosecution if he admitted knowing that his tenants were bringing men back to their rooms for immoral purposes - he also said he had only learned after the murder that Kelly walked the streets.