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  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    If I may answer, it's a few paragraphs down from the part you posted;

    Mr John M'Carthy, the owner of the houses in Millers-court, who keeps a chandler's shop in Dorset-street, has made the following statement as to the murdered woman:--

    The victim of this terrible murder was about 23 or 24 years of age, and lived with a coal porter named Kelly, passing as his wife. They, however, quarrelled sometime back and separated. A woman named Harvey slept with her several nights since Kelly separated from her, but she was not with her last night. The deceased's christian name was Mary Jane, and since her murder I have discovered that she walked the streets in the neighbourhood of Aldgate. Her habits were irregular, and she often came home at night the worse for drink. Her mother lives in Ireland, but in what county I do not know. Deceased used to receive letters from her occasionally. The unfortunate woman had not paid her rent for several weeks; in fact she owed 30s altogether, so this morning I sent my man to ask if she could pay the money. He knocked at the door, but received no answer. Thinking this very strange he looked in at the window, and to his horror he saw the body of Kelly lying on the bed covered with blood. He immediately came back to me, and told me what he had seen. I was, of course, as horrified as he was, and I went with him to the house and looked in at the window. The sight I saw was more ghastly even than I had prepared myself for. On the bed lay the body as my man had told me, while the table was covered with what seemed to me to be lumps of flesh. I said to my main "Go at once to the police-station and fetch some one here." He went off at once and brought back Inspector Back (sic) who looked through the window as we had done. He then despatched a telegram to superintendent Arnold, but before Superintendent Arnold arrived, Inspector Abberline came and gave orders that no one should be allowed to enter or leave the court. The Inspector waited a little while and then sent a telegram to Sir Charles Warren to bring the bloodhounds, so as to trace the murderer if possible. So soon as Superintendent Arnold arrived he gave instructions for the door to be burst open. I at once forced the door with a pickaxe, and we entered the room. The sight we saw I cannot drive away from my mind. It looked more like the work of a devil than of a man. The poor woman's body was lying on the bed, undressed. She had been completely disembowelled, and her entrails has been taken out and placed on the table. It was those that I had seen when I looked through the window and took to be lumps of flesh. The woman's nose had been cut off, and her face gashed beyond recognition. Both her breasts too had been cut clean away and placed by the side of her liver and other entrails on the table. I had heard a great deal about the Whitechapel murders, but I declare to god I had never expected to see such a sight as this. The body was, of course, covered with blood, and so was the bed. The whole scene is more than I can describe. I hope I may never see such a sight again. It is most extraordinary that nothing should have been heard by the neighbours, as there are people passing backwards and forwards at all hours of the night, but no one heard so much as a scream. I woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" at 1 o'clock this morning. So up to that time, at all events, she was alive and well. So far as I can ascertain no one saw her take a man into the house with her last night.
    Hi Joshua,

    What source is this?

    Regards, Pierre

    Comment


    • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
      It is true that the song Sweet Violets was not the song described by Cox at the inquest. We don't know, however, if she told the press that she heard Kelly singing this song.

      But we are in agreement that Cox did not describe the song Sweet Violets at the inquest and that the press said it was sung at 1am whereas the only song identified by Cox as having been sung by Kelly was a different song with similar lyrics said to have been sung at about midnight.

      As I have said to you repeatedly during this thread, and you keep ignoring, that means there are two obvious possibilities:

      1. Kelly was heard to sing two songs about violets during the night.

      2. Kelly only sang one song about violets during the night and the press was confused about the correct title.
      David, point 1 and 2 are merely your own interpretations. That is OK. But they do not help me and they can not answer my questions.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
        I woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" at 1 o'clock this morning.
        Thanks Joshua. I might add that in the Times itself it says "A woman..." rather than "I woman..".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
          David, point 1 and 2 are merely your own interpretations. That is OK. But they do not help me and they can not answer my questions.
          You describe them as "merely" my "interpretations" although what I said was that they are "two obvious possibilities".

          Are you saying that they are not two obvious possibilities?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
            Thanks Joshua. I might add that in the Times itself it says "A woman..." rather than "I woman..".
            OK. I think we have reached some sort of platform now where we can reflect a bit on these sources and what they could mean.

            I donīt think we can go much further with our different hypotheses for these sources. They are problematic at many points.

            By the way, has anyone read the dramatic work "Cain - A Mystery" by Lord Byron?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
              OK. I think we have reached some sort of platform now where we can reflect a bit on these sources and what they could mean.

              I donīt think we can go much further with our different hypotheses for these sources. They are problematic at many points.
              Hurrah!

              I assume that's the closest we will get from you to an admission "this thread has all gone pear shaped".

              Comment


              • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                You describe them as "merely" my "interpretations" although what I said was that they are "two obvious possibilities".

                Are you saying that they are not two obvious possibilities?
                They are obvious to you, obviously.

                And possibilities are not established historical facts. They are merely possibilities.

                Donīt you agree with that?

                I am trying to establish historical facts. So I must throw away a lot of garbage. Sweet Violets may be such garbage.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mayerling View Post
                  Hello everyone. It's your resident culture freak bringing something else out regarding the song "Sweet Violets".

                  Check out the page on it in "Wikipedia"

                  There will probably never be a way of guessing which of the two songs were sung (or if both were). However, given that "Sweet Violets" (again according to the article) sometimes was given risque words by some singers, it is now more possible that it was sung by Mary Kelly or some other prostitute that night to maybe break the ice or get into the mood for sex.

                  Anyway maybe this will help us consider the matter a bit more.

                  Jeff
                  Hi Freaky Jeff,
                  Interesting suggestion that the song was some sort of aphrodisiac!
                  I might counter though, by saying; what with alcohol having a depressive effect at times, and as there are several reports of Kelly being unhappy in the days before her death, the slightly more maudlin tune "A violet from Mothers grave" might equally have sprung to her lips.

                  I also read that article, and found dozens of versions of the song, but none of them seem to bear much relation to the original lyrics as printed in the PMG. They only seem to share one line, and try as I might I couldn't make the original words scan with the later versions. I'm not the greatest of singers, though. Is there any sheet music for Sweet Violets anywhere? Not that I could read it, but someone might be able to and see if it's the same song as the later, saucier versions.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                    Hurrah!

                    I assume that's the closest we will get from you to an admission "this thread has all gone pear shaped".
                    No, that is just your own words.

                    I also asked a question. Did you notice it?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                      No, that is just your own words.

                      I also asked a question. Did you notice it?
                      I wonder where Steve is, by the way. He would have noticed the question.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Is there any sheet music for Sweet Violets anywhere? Not that I could read it, but someone might be able to and see if it's the same song as the later, saucier versions.
                        Sheet music here:



                        The later versions were parodies I believe.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                          I also asked a question. Did you notice it?
                          Yes I did.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                            They are obvious to you, obviously.

                            And possibilities are not established historical facts. They are merely possibilities.

                            Donīt you agree with that?

                            I am trying to establish historical facts. So I must throw away a lot of garbage. Sweet Violets may be such garbage.
                            You haven't answered my question as to whether you accept that they are obvious possibilities.

                            But, Pierre, it doesn't matter. Like you say, we can now enter a period of quiet reflection due to these "problematic" sources.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                              You haven't answered my question as to whether you accept that they are obvious possibilities.

                              But, Pierre, it doesn't matter. Like you say, we can now enter a period of quiet reflection due to these "problematic" sources.
                              According to you, the two "obvious possibilities" are:

                              1. Kelly was heard to sing two songs about violets during the night.
                              There is a possibility. And there is a possibility that only Cox heard Kelly singing. There is also a possibility that no one heard Kelly sing about violets.

                              2. Kelly only sang one song about violets during the night and the press was confused about the correct title.
                              The possibility is rather weak. There are differences between the sources as to the statements about the time of the singing and the title of the song.

                              And there is also another problem, which you have not discussed. The Pall Mall Gazette wrote on the 10th November that the person who told the press about hearing Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time".

                              Another thing, David: I do not believe, like you do, in "the obvious".
                              Last edited by Pierre; 08-14-2016, 10:50 AM.

                              Comment


                              • You may be right about the later versions as parodies. As I was reading the sheet music (from an American publishing house in Cincinatti, by the way), I noticed that the composer, Mr. Emmet, also sang the song (presumably on stage in his own shows). This was not unusual. In the 1890s the American song and comedy team of Harrigan and Hart did a series of plays with their own songs about Irish immigrants rising to social positions in the world of New York City in that period. Mr. Emmet not only had one about Gypsies, but one about being among the Irish.

                                Jeff

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