Graphologist Claims Tumblety wrote the Lusk Letter

[Shelley]

Dear Shelley:

Tumbelty,as far as we know to date,was a homosexual.

We had been informed that he was married once, by the conman Sanford Conover/Colonel Dunham. Tumbelty, at no time, shows any animosity towards women because they were women,other than what Dunham claimed...and that being that he cast aside women because of an alleged marriage to a woman with an inference to prostitution during the alleged marriage. Thats not evidence of being married, hating women, and even being bi-sexual.

We've got guys coming out of the woodwork in the newspaper accounts of Tumbelty, but not one with a bona fide link to his alleged misogyny towards the Better Half.

You'll remember that in January 1889 in an article or rather, in my view, an infomercial for the New York World...Tumbelty appeared ready and rarin' to go for the interviewer with some little ditty prepared by a dowager of his acquaintance. Even a lady killer like me doesn't walk around with poems from women.

Unless they are from Ally.

Before I forget,Shelley....please demonstrate where Tumbelty sold pornography and please answer Ally's post. I'd like to see that too.

Thanks and enjoy the juice.

What you say Howard makes much sense, and i had a cold glass of sunny D and it was delicous thanks. I read that Tumbelty sold pornographic material from some articles i'd picked up and a vague recall from the book the lodger, however in the book the lodger i don't recall it specifically stating that Tumbelty did sell pornographic material, so from memory i wouldn't say it was the book, just some scraps of articles that had been photocopied that i picked up. I also find assumptions about what i write rather tedious if not boring to snooze.

[perrymason]

Well, I have found a source, cant claim I know of its information integrity, but...... a site registered to The Cardinal Courier of Rochester New York, run by the St John Fisher College...and this is in their Bio of him...

"Tumblety was raised in Rochester in a house on Sophia Street (now Plymouth Avenue). As a boy, he would peddle pornography along the canal to earn money."

Heres the full article..

"Jack the Ripper is one of the most mysterious figures in history. He has remained the most studied serial killer because his identity is still a mystery, despite gruesome evidence left at the time.

Jack the Ripper was also the first serial killer to be mentioned in the media.

In the fall of 1888, he was ravaging the streets of London, killing and mutilating prostitutes. With at least five murders in three months, he provided newspapers with plenty of material.

In 1993, new evidence was found that proposed a Rochester native was the real man behind the moniker.

John George Littlechild, the Chief Inspector who headed the search for the killer, had written a letter to a journalist identifying Francis Tumblety as a "very likely suspect." In the letter, Littlechild mentions that Tumblety was arrested after his landlord caught him changing out of a bloodstained shirt; he then posted bail and fled the country. This was when the murders stopped. An inspector was sent to New York City to follow the suspect, but by that time Tumblety was in his hometown.

Tumblety was raised in Rochester in a house on Sophia Street (now Plymouth Avenue). As a boy, he would peddle pornography along the canal to earn money.

As an adult, he posed as an expert doctor, becoming well known for his scams and herbal "remedies." Tumblety was connected to the deaths of several of his patients and was constantly on the run from police, moving through the United States, Canada and later, Europe.

The man who has become closely linked with the London murders over 100 years ago, lies today in Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Rochester. "

For what its worth, seems vague in places and a stretch in others, but accurate enough for a superficial study I guess.

Cheers

[jmenges]

Again, this is a misreading of Capt. Streeter's description. No where does he mention pornography, but says the books and papers would have violated the Comstock law. Dr. Lispanard's book on male and female sexually transmitted diseases would have done just that. Tumblety worked out of that office at the time.

JM

[perrymason]

Again, this is a misreading of Capt. Streeter's description. No where does he mention pornography, but says the books and papers would have violated the Comstock law. Dr. Lispanard's book on male and female sexually transmitted diseases would have done just that. Tumblety worked out of that office at the time.

JM

You're speaking of course of the lodger Gladstone story example JM, right? What do you make of the early, childhood Tumblety stories then?

Cheers

[Shelley]

Again, this is a misreading of Capt. Streeter's description. No where does he mention pornography, but says the books and papers would have violated the Comstock law. Dr. Lispanard's book on male and female sexually transmitted diseases would have done just that. Tumblety worked out of that office at the time.

JM

I would have liked a bit of a conversation with you about the Tumbelty bit and the pornographic material jmenges, i thought for a moment that you may not have come back on this thread. The bits i recall from memory were scraps that came from i am sure were newspaper articles. However the sexuality content especially for the time may well be very well explained by the info Ally left by a link and also what Howard Brown has to say, which ever information it would all be speculation, as newspaper articles can be fabricated to sell newspaper articles, or indeed they could hold to some truth, but who would know for sure. Still could you just post a little information if you have time on your views as to why the Pornographic material that Tumbelty was suppossed to not sold? I'm not asking for evidence...I'd like to ask anyone but i know it's unrealistic to ask, wheres the evidence for every named suspect to actually be JTR, i know that no one could do that.

[Shelley]

However,
I would say that it is just as reasonable to take in view that Tumbelty could have sold pornographic material, as from a medical stance why would ordinary members of the public want to buy medical sexual material. Tumbelty could have also sold and bought medical sexual material as well, but the selling he wouldn't recieve that many customers, not unless it was explicit pornographis material.Comstock laws or no comstock laws people sold porographic material, you only have to know that the Marquis De Sade sold such sexually explicit material in books and pamhlets to the public ( Under the shelf material) until some public burning of his material and his incarceration. It is reasonable to take the link that Ally left and also about what Howard Brown said as regards Tumbelty that is. However it is also reasonable to understand that pornography was not limited to the Bordellos of prostitutes and the streetwalkers with a display in the streets in a dark corner, or alley, of course it would be sold in magazines/pamhlets etc, that's nothing new for the 1800's so it is reasonable to take what i have said and what Perrymason has said as well, and both would be breaking these Comstock Laws in any case. There doesn't seem to be an actual evidence other than what someone has said and also been displayed in a newspaper report etc, it could be fabricated it could be true, everything is down to whether one chooses to believe, including shreds to pin point a choice of suspect as JTR as well. As regards Evidence for JTR, nothing solid anyway, even witness such as Mathew packer and others, people have chosen to disregard on these threads and in books.

[jmenges]

Hi Shelley,

As I stated in that post that Ally linked to, and I paste below, my information comes from Tumblety researcher Timothy Riordan. Perry Mason, Capt. Streeter is the canal boat captain who gave his statement to the press describing Tumblety at the age of roughly 15.

According to Mr. Riordan, in an episode of the Rippercast podcast entitled A Portrait of Francis Tumblety, he has located the book published by Dr. Reynolds (aka Lispenard) that was very likely the material being sold by Tumblety in the area of the Erie Canal. Material which would fit the description of something, if sent by post, would have at the time of Streeter's interview violated the Comstock Law. If Tim would like to come onto this thread to further explain his research into this area, I'm sure it would be appreciated. Otherwise, I suggest you listen to the podcast episode where he is asked about this very topic. His opinion on this matter is convincing IMO.

As Tim Riordan notes elsewhere, and I happen to agree with him, this story of Tumblety supposedly peddling pornography is likely to be exaggerated and taken out of historical context.

The claim was made by a canal boat captain in Rochester that Tumblety (circa the years 1848-1850, Tumblety would be a respected physician with loads of money 6 years later) was selling books that at the time of the interview would violate the Comstock law. We think of them today as pornographic materials that would be illegal if sent through the mail. But in the 1840's-1850's, printed materials dealing with feminine issues, birth control, abortion and sexual dysfunction was also considered lewd by the authorities.

Recall that at the time of this supposed porn peddling, Tumblety was an apprentice to Dr. Reynolds at Lispenard's 'hospital'. Tumblety's job as an apprentice would have included selling the "doctor's" books, pamphlets, recruiting patients and sweeping the office floors.

"Dr. Lispenard" published a book (that Dr. Reynolds later affixed his name to) around this very time of the mid to late 1840s that's subject was sexually-transmitted diseases in both males and females. This book, Mr. Riordan suggests, was the one sold on the Erie Canal boats by apprentice Tumblety and was a book which indeed would have violated the Comstock law if it was sent through the post.

So, it is very likely that Tumblety was selling pamphlets and books of a sexual-medical nature in effort to recruit patients for his employer rather than peddling what we would today classify as porn.

Edit- our posts crossed, btw.

JM

[Shelley]

Has Timothy Riordan done a bit or a lot of research on Tumbelty? I seem to recall his name now somewhere. The above post sounds like some good stuff towards the research of Tumbelty. Would Tumbelty have sold some medical magazines to student Doctors as well as Doctors coming in off the boats?, i guess that way he wouldn't have broken the Comstock Laws concerning Posting such material then.
Still, it's possible that Tumbelty came into pornographic stuff as would a lot of men at some time or another ( you know hush hush stuff) but i can see the points you've made about the exaggeration especially concerning that Tumbelty was an apprentice of Dr Reynolds and was trying to be a Doctor himself.
I wonder what any of them would have made concerning the Marquis De Sade if they came across that historical figure? Hee hee.

[jmenges]

Has Timothy Riordan done a bit or a lot of research on Tumbelty?

A lot. He's in the process of writing a complete biography of Tumblety.

Would Tumbelty have sold some medical magazines to student Doctors as well as Doctors coming in off the boats?

He would have been selling pamphlets and books to potential clients for Dr. Reynolds. Boatmen who may believe that they have a sexually transmitted disease. These were materials that described STD symptoms and "treatments".

JM

[Shelley]

A lot. He's in the process of writing a complete biography of Tumblety.



He would have been selling pamphlets and books to potential clients for Dr. Reynolds. Boatmen who may believe that they have a sexually transmitted disease. These were materials that described STD symptoms and "treatments".

JM

If Tim has a book on his work in research it would well be worth reading. That's a good point about men who may think or have any sexually transmitted diseases, it wasn't uncommon. I guess anything that pointed anywhere near sexuality could well have been classed as lewd by authorities and not just in the USA, as some eygptian and roman artifacts were destroyed ( mainly anything to do with sexuality or sexual organs), they were extremely prudish, i did hear of a story of a Victorian couple that had separate beds and never had sex all thier married life, they weren't told anything about it ( still i would have thought that the man in the marriage would have found a way somewhere). Thinking about it all, it may probably have been a period in history where prostitution was is high demand.
Thanks for that info JM.

[Shelley]

Mind you i was thinking about the graphologist were it is said that she reckons with some of the loops on the Lusk letter writing is pent-up sexuality, Elizabeth I ( The Virgin Queen ) signature has wow loops in it, Boy i'll bet theres some heck of pent-up emotions that make you go cross eyed just looking at it.

[miss marple]

John Douglas the profiler wrote a very good book called The Cases that haunt us. He makes some interesting comments on the ripper case and like Rumblelow believes the Lusk letter could be the only authentic one. His reasons are...
Its does not use the Jack the Ripper pseudonym, it arrives after those letters, but states from Hell.
It was sent to a prominent member of the local community rather than a newspaper.He believes this type of disorganised killer operates within his own circumscribed zone of comfort.
The letter was sent after the double event, after the jack the ripper letters and Douglas believes those facts may have compelled a disorganised killer to set the record straight and keep control.He may have sent the kidney to authenticate himself after the ear mentioned in 'dear boss'. ''In other words he would not feel a need to communicate until someone else claimed credit and tried to define his personality for him'
The writing style of the letter is virtually 'an illiterate parody of the cleverer and more sophisticated style of the first letter as if the writer is trying to show himself equal to the wit and flair of the pretender'
He believes the spelling suggests someone not terribly familiar with english writing,most likely an uneducated immigrant, but writing the way he hears it;
'Catch me if you can' has two meanings one an obvious taunt to the police the second would be a cry for help, similar to the ''For heAVens sake catch me before I KILL MORE i cannot control myself' message scrawed on a wall by Chicago murder William Heirens with his victims lipstick''
Its interesting stuff, Douglas is not insistent, he just says its possible, consistent with the type of behaviour he would expect from a serial killer like jack.
If he is right, I think that excludes Tumblety.
Miss Marple

[Shelley]

John Douglas the profiler wrote a very good book called The Cases that haunt us. He makes some interesting comments on the ripper case and like Rumblelow believes the Lusk letter could be the only authentic one. His reasons are...
Its does not use the Jack the Ripper pseudonym, it arrives after those letters, but states from Hell.
It was sent to a prominent member of the local community rather than a newspaper.He believes this type of disorganised killer operates within his own circumscribed zone of comfort.
The letter was sent after the double event, after the jack the ripper letters and Douglas believes those facts may have compelled a disorganised killer to set the record straight and keep control.He may have sent the kidney to authenticate himself after the ear mentioned in 'dear boss'. ''In other words he would not feel a need to communicate until someone else claimed credit and tried to define his personality for him'
The writing style of the letter is virtually 'an illiterate parody of the cleverer and more sophisticated style of the first letter as if the writer is trying to show himself equal to the wit and flair of the pretender'
He believes the spelling suggests someone not terribly familiar with english writing,most likely an uneducated immigrant, but writing the way he hears it;
'Catch me if you can' has two meanings one an obvious taunt to the police the second would be a cry for help, similar to the ''For heAVens sake catch me before I KILL MORE i cannot control myself' message scrawed on a wall by Chicago murder William Heirens with his victims lipstick''
Its interesting stuff, Douglas is not insistent, he just says its possible, consistent with the type of behaviour he would expect from a serial killer like jack.
If he is right, I think that excludes Tumblety.
Miss Marple

That's interesting, sounds like a good read of a book. Still the points that are made with not having recognition to the name Jack, also churches were a main category for teaching some education in the Victorian period, amongst some other charitable organisations with christian charity at the core, it's possible with the illiterate and immigrant points, but i dare say there was more than one person killing in London, as there were other deaths of women that were not attributed to JTR. One thing about human nature is it always adapts to what is around them.

[miss marple]

irish

I think the point about immigrants is that English is a difficult language to spell, but if you were an immigrant listening to the speech around you and tried to spell certain words, you would spell them the way they sounded, an immigrant may not know that the irish accent was not a london accent.If you were not completely illiterate. The phonetics of some of the words in the letter, sound Irish. So if a lot of irish accents were heard in Whitechapel that's how the words were spelled [Irish sounding english]. Of course the writer of the letter could have been Irish.
Miss Marple

[Shelley]

I think the point about immigrants is that English is a difficult language to spell, but if you were an immigrant listening to the speech around you and tried to spell certain words, you would spell them the way they sounded, an immigrant may not know that the irish accent was not a london accent.If you were not completely illiterate. The phonetics of some of the words in the letter, sound Irish. So if a lot of irish accents were heard in Whitechapel that's how the words were spelled [Irish sounding english]. Of course the writer of the letter could have been Irish.
Miss Marple

That's a very good and reasonable explaination, but it's possible to be English born and be illiterate and still pick up the Irish sounds and write them as sounded as you say. All round a very good insight and bearing serious thought.