Kidney

[Diddles]

I deem it more likely that JtR removed the organs himself and carried them away in the torn apron, rather than the kidneys being removed by some medical student at the mortuary.
However, if the From Hell letter was a hoax, there is nothing to suggest that the kidney came from Eddowes body at the mortuary, and not some random corpse from another mortuary?
But I think it's a good point AGAINST the letter being a hoax that the author didn't sign it Jack the Ripper...

[Trevor Marriott]

I deem it more likely that JtR removed the organs himself and carried them away in the torn apron, rather than the kidneys being removed by some medical student at the mortuary.
However, if the From Hell letter was a hoax, there is nothing to suggest that the kidney came from Eddowes body at the mortuary, and not some random corpse from another mortuary?
But I think it's a good point AGAINST the letter being a hoax that the author didn't sign it Jack the Ripper...

Recent tests carried out would suggest that the condition of the apron piece is not consitent with the organs being carried away in it.

[Diddles]

Recent tests carried out would suggest that the condition of the apron piece is not consitent with the organs being carried away in it.

Hm, I thought the fact that the apron was SOAKED in blood would suggest that it was used for more than just wiping his hands after the deed..

What kind of tests can verify if an apron has been used to carry organs?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hm, I thought the fact that the apron was SOAKED in blood would suggest that it was used for more than just wiping his hands after the deed..

The apron piece was desrcibed as being only spotted with blood

What kind of tests can verify if an apron has been used to carry organs?

In an effort to re create the scenario you have commented on. A uterus was taken from a live donor and wrapped in a piece of white cloth then photographing the cloth a short time later. The cloth came up heavily bloodstained as you would expect as the organ was full of oxygenated blood.

[Diddles]

Thanks Trevor, that's very interesting!
I guess I was misinformed about the apron being soaked rather than stained. I'm curious to why jtr wouldn't use the apron if i he in fact brought some of the organs with him..
Can't see him using his pockets

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Trevor, that's very interesting!
I guess I was misinformed about the apron being soaked rather than stained. I'm curious to why jtr wouldn't use the apron if i he in fact brought some of the organs with him..
Can't see him using his pockets

Well thats a question that has two answers depending on your thought process.

1. JTR did remove the organs ?

2. JTR Did not remove the organs ?

In my professional opinion as I have stated many time on here there is more eveidence to show he did not remove the organs than there is to show he did.

However I do not intend to argue these points yet again if you want to be fully up to speed in relation to both sets of arguments you should go back and read and digest the various postal arguments there have been on the topic.

[Diddles]

However I do not intend to argue these points yet again if you want to be fully up to speed in relation to both sets of arguments you should go back and read and digest the various postal arguments there have been on the topic.

Thank you, I certainly will..

[bolo]

Hi all,

Dr Brown stated at the inquest that, quote, "some blood and apparently faecal matter" had been found on it (my emphasis). This tells me that a) the piece of apron was not soaked in blood and thus was not used to carry organs around and b) the killer used it to clean his hands and knife.

By the way, do we have reliable information about the size of the piece of apron?

As for the Lusk letter, there are a few peculiarities that make it more interesting than the rest of the Ripper-related communication but I still don't know what to make of it. Would it open up a whole new vista on the case if it was real? I don't really think so.

Regards,

Boris

[Diddles]

Hi all,


By the way, do we have reliable information about the size of the piece of apron?

According to this interesting dissertation the piece of apron would have been atleast 3-4 square feet. But I don't know if that's verified.

Also interesting is that:
P.C. Long reported ' ....about 2.55am I found a portion of a womans apron which I produced, there appeared blood stains on it one portion was wet lying in a passage leading to the staircases of 108 - 119 model dwelling house. "
So the apron was stained and apparantly wet from something..

[Hunter]

I'm not sure that I understand this, are you able to enlarge on it?

Cadavors that were used for study were injected with formaline or a similar substance to slow decomposition. This would have been done soon after the body was received at the mortuary. The Lusk kidney was preserved in spirits.

Didddles,

I believe you will find the " did Jack show anatomical knowledge" thread very interesting.

[Trevor Marriott]

Cadavors that were used for study were injected with formaline or a similar substance to slow decomposition. This would have been done soon after the body was received at the mortuary. The Lusk kidney was preserved in spirits.

Didddles,

I believe you will find the " did Jack show anatomical knowledge" thread very interesting.

And the one that shows he didnt remove the organs also as interesting ! [U]"Touche"[/U]

And the portion of the apron was no where near 4 feet long or wide it wouldnt have been a portion then it would have been almost half the apron.

But hey ho here we go again lets all get the gloves off

[bolo]

Hi Trevor,

And the portion of the apron was no where near 4 feet long or wide it wouldnt have been a portion then it would have been almost half the apron.

I've just read the dissertation Diddles mentioned (thank you!). It seems that the piece of apron may have been larger than we think if this statement of Detective Sergeant Halse is to be believed: "When I saw the dead woman at the mortuary I noticed that a piece of her apron was missing. About half of it. It had been cut with a clean cut." (my emphasis, taken from A Piece of Apron, Some Chalk Graffiti and a Lost Hour, by Jon Smyth.

Other sources mention a "corner of an apron" but as far as I know, none of them tells us its exact size, hence my question because the size could tell us more about its purpose.

Regards,

Boris

[Stewart P Evans]

Yes

Cadavors that were used for study were injected with formaline or a similar substance to slow decomposition. This would have been done soon after the body was received at the mortuary. The Lusk kidney was preserved in spirits.
...

Yes, I realise that, but what are you trying to say?

[Diddles]

Bolo,

I just realised that I forgot to provide you with a link to the dissertation I mentioned; glad you found it anyway!

Hunter: I have now read through some of the posts in the "ripper-anatomical knowledge"-thread, and found it very enlightening.

[Hunter]

Yes, I realise that, but what are you trying to say?

I'm sorry Stewart, I was in a hurry. The suggestion was that it could have been a prank from medical students. It still could have been a prank but the body would have had to be relatively fresh if it was destined for dissection as they didn't lay very long before formaline was injected.