Best solution?

[Wickerman]

Hi Sherlock Holmes,

I realise it goes against the Ripperological grain, but, yes, we have been chasing a fictitious killer.

That should not come as a surprise to anyone.
When we don't have a name, nor know what he looked like, or how many he killed. No matter what the mind conjures up, the image must be largely fiction.

Like chasing smoke...

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sherlock Holmes,

I realise it goes against the Ripperological grain, but, yes, we have been chasing a fictitious killer.

Thinking about this antithetical proposition doesn't immediately solve the mystery, but it does allow us to start making proper sense of all the various rot history has handed down to us.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil H]

I don't think "Jackthe Ripper" existed in the classic form, no.

I don't think the popular image of opera hat, cape and Gladstone bag is tenable, no.

I think MJK was probably killed by a separate hand and I am unsure (still) about Stride.

I think one killer may have killed Nichols and Chapman, maybe McKenzie.

Does that mean I no longer believe in JtR - as the man in the street would define him? I guess so.

Phil H

[Sherlock Holmes]

So are you telling me and the rest of the world that people like me around the world have spent years chasing a FICTITIOUS killer?

Well, a couple of serious books have been written on that theme:

AP Wolf "Jack the Myth" (1993 - which is, I think, available on this site); and

Peter Turnbull "The Killer Who Never Was" (1996).

After an initial shock, I found the ideas in both thought provoking and they set me off into new avenues.

I would date my tendency to question the truth of the "five canonicals" to reading those two books. I am now much more willing to consider the inclusion of other victims - Mckenzie - and to exclude others - Stride, MJK even Eddowes.

I suppose the idea behind the idea of no single killer is that the successive creation of a single "identity" (initially Leather Apron, then JtR) created a "frenzied", super-charged atmosphere in which press, public and police were all minded to think in terms of a SINGLE killer and may have conflated murders that were actually the work of other hands (Stride, MJK notably).

Since the question of method remains controversial it is not an idea that we can dismiss lightly, I feel. It sings in my head all the time nowadays, when I contemplate posts on here, read a new Ripper-related book, or consider a theory being put forward.

Phil H

That is all well and good Phil but I asked what YOU think on the matter. Are we chasing a fictitious killer or not?

Mr Holmes

[Phil H]

So are you telling me and the rest of the world that people like me around the world have spent years chasing a FICTITIOUS killer?

Well, a couple of serious books have been written on that theme:

AP Wolf "Jack the Myth" (1993 - which is, I think, available on this site); and

Peter Turnbull "The Killer Who Never Was" (1996).

After an initial shock, I found the ideas in both thought provoking and they set me off into new avenues.

I would date my tendency to question the truth of the "five canonicals" to reading those two books. I am now much more willing to consider the inclusion of other victims - Mckenzie - and to exclude others - Stride, MJK even Eddowes.

I suppose the idea behind the idea of no single killer is that the successive creation of a single "identity" (initially Leather Apron, then JtR) created a "frenzied", super-charged atmosphere in which press, public and police were all minded to think in terms of a SINGLE killer and may have conflated murders that were actually the work of other hands (Stride, MJK notably).

Since the question of method remains controversial it is not an idea that we can dismiss lightly, I feel. It sings in my head all the time nowadays, when I contemplate posts on here, read a new Ripper-related book, or consider a theory being put forward.

Phil H

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hi All,

Just a crass notion, but Best couldn't have profited financially or enhanced his career prospects by writing DB without letting someone else in on the wheeze.

Also, if Jack the Ripper was nothing but a press invention cooked up to boost newspaper circulation, why years later were assorted top cops pretending he was real?

Regards,

Simon

So are you telling me and the rest of the world that people like me around the world have spent years chasing a FICTITIOUS killer?

Mr Holmes

[Michael W Richards]

National Security, or in these cases perhaps the misuse of Information and the intentional suppression of information, trumps 5 dead Unfortunates in the slums. So why does everyone think of Jack the Ripper as the story during the Fall of 1888? The only reason is because we only have information as relates to the domestic police investigations into the crimes. How could we know if National Security investigations into the Ripper crimes led to Irish self rule terrorism, or vice versa?

One wonders what other agencies found out while conducting their own investigations.

I think Simon hints that Tumblety was a relevant character that Fall, just not relevant to investigations into the killings of the Unfortunates.

Best regards

[Bridewell]

Not to mention that one, PC Richard Pearse lived at 3 Mitre Square very close to the murder site and saw and heard nothing, not even the police whistles...

Very close to one of the murder sites. Not all that close to the others though.

Regards, Bridewell.

[RavenDarkendale]

Hi Stephen,

I don't know, but for a whole raft of reasons the big scary monster we fear to confront is that the top cops may have lied about JtR.

Perhaps the time has come to try to find out if it's true.

We've spun our wheels for far too long.

Regards,

Simon

Not to mention that one, PC Richard Pearse lived at 3 Mitre Square very close to the murder site and saw and heard nothing, not even the police whistles...

[lynn cates]

ah ha!

Hello Robert. That's the one! Norma Buddle discusses the situation about 3/4 way down the thread. She always scoops me.

Thanks. I could kiss you--well, maybe not.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

If it helps, there is an old discussion about Tumblety/Hayes. It's an old thread so things may have changed since :

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-291.html

[lynn cates]

Hayes

Hello Simon. Yes, indeed. And one of our researchers (forget whom) linked her to the Philadelphia spy, Hayes.

I tried doing a bit of research but it was a difficult go. If it helps, I believe he was an engineer.

According to Campbell, Davitt lured him to Paris on the eve of the Parnell Commission and extracted some information--at the point of a revolver.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Tumblety had a sister named Jane Hayes, if that's anything to go by.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

London Bridge is blowing down.

Hello Simon. Thanks.

A couple years back there was an investigation into Tumblety's being related to the Hayes of Philadelphia. The possibility being that it was John P. Hayes, Sir Ed's informant of London Bridge fame.

Any final word on that?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

One or two inklings, but nothing worth mentioning at the moment.

The problem is that the WM was not one linear mystery.

Tumblety, for instance, was most definitely a discrete affair.

Regards,

Simon