Dear Boss

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm sitting on the fence, but very seriously considering Lynn Cates' theory about the IWMC having potentially arranged Schwartz's testimony about Stride, BS, and Pipeman

LOL, is this Lynn's theory now? I remember when I conceived it, then saw it bastardized by Perry Mason. Is there a thread where Lynn has posted his version?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
Yes, I know that Batchelor was unfortunately a relatively common name in Victorian London (if not as much as Kelly, Schwartz, and Levy), and that the Strand publican from the 1890's might not necessarily be the same James Batchelor as in 1888/89, though certainly a good possibility. Has anybody reseached R. Batchelors in the 1891 census?
Wescott wrote:
There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter, that have I have not yet published.
Surely by this you don't just mean the red ink?

As for "a guy like Le Grand" having had no trouble to have his minions procure a fresh kidney, I have some serious trouble accepting this. The kidney in question should have not been preserved in alcohol (or ginger beer!) for too long, otherwise this fact would have been immediately detected by the doctors. Thus the kidney should have been fresh – just a few days. I'd have to check the statistics for death rates in Victorian Whitechapel, to see how often fresh bodies went inside fresh graves. Where's Colin Roberts (Septic Blue) when one needs him?!
The body from which the kidney would have been extracted should have been in the right age too, as in definitely less than 50. (Otherwise it would have been recognized, even with Eddowes' disease and all. Gender would have played no role.)
Anyway, the best of lucks with your research and book.

[mariab]

Wescott wrote:
Is this Lynn's theory now? I remember when I conceived it, then saw it bastardized by Perry Mason. Is there a thread where Lynn has posted his version?
I fully understood that it was Lynn Cates' theory, as he presented it on the (extremely voluminous and meandering, so good luck with your search) thread A modern day BS/Liz. As for Perry Mason (the one here on casebook, not the famous lawyer), I've never had the honour of encountering him, being too young and having joined casebook just 4 months ago.

[robhouse]

Hi Tom,
You wrote:
"I do not believe the kidney was Eddowes'. A guy like Le Grand would have had no trouble procurring such a specimen."

I am assuming from your recent article in CE that you are proposing Le Grand as being the Ripper. Are you suggesting that Le Grand took Eddowes' kidney, but then procured an entirely different kidney to send to Lusk? If so this doesnt make any sense to me at all...

You seem to be suggesting that Le Grand was the real serial killer, at the same time pretending to be the Ripper (i.e. hiding his true identity from Aarons) and sending a fake Eddowes kidney in a box, when he had the real kidney. (???)

Rob H

[Tom_Wescott]

Wescott wrote:
There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter, that have I have not yet published.
Surely by this you don't just mean the red ink?

What red ink? We're talking about the 'From Hell' letter.

The body from which the kidney would have been extracted should have been in the right age too, as in definitely less than 50.

I'm not gonna touch that. But let me say that IF you believe the From Hell letter/kidney was legit, then you might have to change your mind either about that or Le Grand's complicity. Personally, I don't see any evidence that the kidney was from Eddowes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I don't doubt at all that you were under the impression Lynn concocted the IWMEC/Schwartz theory. But take it from the originator, that it is purely supposition.

[mariab]

I assume that the suspicions on the WVC treasurer Joseph Aarons are related to the “box of toys“ postcard, but no time to research this further tonight. Unless there are hints to the contrary (and I won't be as exigent as to demand evidence!), my opinion about the suspicion that Le Grand and Aarons “were in it together to organize a hoax with a Ripper letter and half a kidney just to spur the public into giving more donations“, but of course Lusk got NO wind whatsoever of all that: too phantastic a story.
To Rob House:
Your post totally cracked me up!
I think that Wescott got a bit carried away when aswering to Abby, as at this point he's considering Le Grand both as a candidate for the Ripper and a candidate for JUST hoaxes (Ripper letters, grape stalks, the Lodger, and, might I add, Mr R. Batchelor and his doctor-alike customer with the bleeding leather bag!)
By the by, I was starting to consider the question of making dinner and I was going to go for a salad, but all that talk about kidneys and Simon Wood's disciplining his ducks and getting them all in a row reminds me there's some duck filet in my fridge (covered in blood, I might add), which, in wacky Paris logic, is much cheaper and easier to find than steak or chicken! So, I guess tonight will be carnivore...

[Tom_Wescott]

I am assuming from your recent article in CE that you are proposing Le Grand as being the Ripper. Are you suggesting that Le Grand took Eddowes' kidney, but then procured an entirely different kidney to send to Lusk? If so this doesnt make any sense to me at all...

You seem to be suggesting that Le Grand was the real serial killer, at the same time pretending to be the Ripper (i.e. hiding his true identity from Aarons) and sending a fake Eddowes kidney in a box, when he had the real kidney. (???)

Rob H

Hi Rob. My essay, as you'll recall, did not argue that Le Grand was Jack the Ripper, but proved he WAS a suspect and surveyed various data to come to an understanding of why he was a suspect. Long before I came upon Le Grand, my research led me to conclude that the most likely hoaxer of the 'From hell' letter was Joseph Aarons, the treasurer for the WVC. Naturally, once I learned that Aarons had hired a conman with a history of writing false letters, who is known to have been able to alter his handwriting, and would have his woman and subordinates write letters on his dictation, I had no choice but to consider that Le Grand played a hand in the 'From Hell' letter also. Let us not forget that Le Grand was employed by the Evening News....and you know where the WVC boys took the kidney BEFORE going to the police? The Evening News. And who was our source for all the erroneous information linking the kidney to Eddowes, which Dr. Openshaw had to go public in order to refute? Joseph Aarons. Just prior to receipt of the kidney, the WVC went on a publicity campaign to raise funding, claiming the money was dried up. POOF! A letter with a kidney appears, they go to Le Grand's guy at the Evening News, Aarons tells the press a lie about the provenance of the kidney, the money rolls in and a hundred years later there's a movie named after the ruse. Way too much smoke for there not to be fire, if you ask me.

As for the kidney, it would be disingenuous of me to argue for it having been from Eddowes when the medical evidence doesn't suggest that to me. Don't you think?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
If there's evidence that Joseph Aarons had a history with fake letters and with a fellow associate who changed his handwriting a lot, then I might consider your hypothesis. But how come Lusk didn't get wind of the hoax then? Or are you going to claim he was involved too? And what had this all to do with the “box of toys“ postcard? (I'm very sorry, but I really have no time to research this further tonight.)
As far as I'm concerned, the "From Hell" letter (as posted here on casebook) is written in red ink.
There would have been NO scientific way possible in the Victorian era to establish if the half kidney in question was from Eddowes. The best they could have done is exhume her, extract her other kidney, and compare the two. Which would be no good, due to decomposition and to the alcohol having altered the Lusk kidney. Today, with DNA, such an identification would be a piece of cake (requiring several weeks for results).
I'm sitting on the fence with Lynn's (or your bastardized) theory about Schwartz's testimony having generated from the IWMC. With persevering research on Schwartz, BS, and Pipeman, this question could get settled one day, hopefully.

[Tom_Wescott]

If there's evidence that Joseph Aarons had a history with fake letters and with a fellow associate who changed his handwriting a lot, then I might consider your hypothesis.

I didn't say that. I said Aarons hired Le Grand, who had a history with fake letters, etc.

But how come Lusk didn't get wind of the hoax then?

For a hoax to work, it must have a dupe. There's no question that, regardless of who wrote the letter, Lusk was the dupe.

And what had this all to do with the “box of toys“ postcard?

I don't believe I referenced this letter in my posts, but for the record, the WVC boys and the Evening News reporter thought it from the same hand, and it probably was, but since no facsimile exists, we'll never know.

As far as I'm concerned, the "From Hell" letter (as posted here on casebook) is written in red ink.

Well, it wasn't, but okay.

There would have been NO scientific way possible in the Victorian era to establish if the half kidney in question was from Eddowes.

Yes, but it's like mitochondrial DNA, which can't prove it was you, but it can prove it WASN'T you.

I'm sitting on the fence with Lynn's (or your bastardized) theory about Schwartz's testimony having generated from the IWMC. With persevering research on Schwartz, BS, and Pipeman, this question could get settled one day, hopefully.

It might not be too hard, but nobody has really looked into it. That's not really my forte, but find some records of William Wess' various sweaters and look for Israel Schwartz's name. If you find it, there you go.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

for the record

Hello Tom and Maria. I just saw this thread.

Just to set the record straight, I definitely did NOT originate the "Schwartz is a fibber" theory. So far as I know, the originator is either Tom Wescott or Mike Richards. Indeed, if an old chap's memory does not fail him, I think that Gareth Williams started a thread about the "Berner st conspiracy" on behalf of Mike.

Of course, if I see a point of view that is well argued, and fits like a piece in a puzzle (with a proper "snap"), I am more than happy to adopt it.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
Sorry for the late response, I was on the phone.
So the “box of toys“ postcard is lost. But perhaps we have the transcribed content? (No, you didn't reference it, I picked it up from doing a search on Joseph Aarons on casebook.)
So the "From Hell" letter wasn't written in red ink? But then why is it posted in red here on casebook?!?
For identifying somebody's kidney, I didn't mean from mitochondrial DNA, but from DNA from bloodwork. I'm not sure if they do paternity tests that way too.
Lynn Cates is looking for a connection between Israel Schwartz, William West, and the IWMC. He couldn't find anything from synagogues yet, but possibly I found him a translator for Der Arbeter Fraint. I wish I could help more, but I'm up to the top of my head with research here in Paris right now.

[mariab]

Hello, Lynn.
I'm sure Tom hasn't taken it personally, as “imitation is the clearest form of approbation“.
I haven't heard a word from Chicago pertaining to the translator candidates yet. I'll wait until tomorrow evening (don't feel like pushing too much), then I'll give you Morris' email address. At the worst, for just 4 pages I'm sure he can do it himself, or his aunt will do it, and even regularly.
I'll go cook that duck now. All that talk about blood and body parts made me hungry! (I should really be ashamed of myself, but if I don't eat soon, I'm about to faint.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz the Liar?

So far as I know, the originator is either Tom Wescott or Mike Richards.

Mike Richards couldn't originate a fart. The hypothesis that the IWEC coaxed Schwartz into lying is pure speculation on my part, based on the following factors.

* Schwartz moved from Berner Street on the day of the murder. The place on Berner Street where broke immigrant Jews could stay for free was the Berner Street club. I suggest he was broke and living in temporary shelter because his wife alone could move their stuff, so I'm assuming he didn't have a large suite of furniture, but only a few belongings.

* There's no question that Wess and company were in defense mode when a murdered gentile woman showed up outside their window. These guys spent their days generating propoganda, so it's not a stretch they would have done so to save their butts, considering they were already on the outs with authorities.

*Assuming Schwartz was an attendee (but not a member) of the club, and perhaps in their debt, and happened by chance not to be at the meetings that night, he would be a sensible person to approach to provide 'evidence' that would draw attention away from a Jew being the murderer.

* Schwartz gave evidence of only two men in the company of Stride - a presumed anti-Semite and a Viking (joke, but you get the point). No Jew but himself in sight.

* I have also suggested that William Wess himself was Schwartz's interpretor to the police, because he went to the same police station (Leman Street) and interpreted for Leon Goldstein, and was probably in the habit of operating in this fashion.

I also pointed out that Abberline and other investigators seem to have later discounted Schwartz as a witness. But altogether, this is logical scenario based on absolutely not a single shred of supporting evidence. If Lynn Cates has thought of points or discovered evidence that I haven't, which wouldn't surprise me, then I'd most grateful to hear them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

So the “box of toys“ postcard is lost. But perhaps we have the transcribed content? (No, you didn't reference it, I picked it up from doing a search on Joseph Aarons on casebook.)
So the "From Hell" letter wasn't written in red ink? But then why is it posted in red here on casebook?!?

Yes, we know the content. I wrote an essay about the From Hell/Dear Boss/Box of Toys connection years ago, and I believe it's in the Dissertations section. Not sure of the title or the quality of content, as I was a wee one when I wrote it and haven't read it in years. I know that it only made number 13 in 'The Best Ripper Essays Ever Written'. The first 12 spots were occuppied by my more recent works.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

IS

Hello Tom. Your second star is the "snap" of a piece in the puzzle. That is what fixes my attention. If only there were a hint of real corroboration from BEYOND the IWMEC, I might change my mind. As it is, well, as you say, these guys dealt in propaganda.

Sadly, I have found nothing new on Schwartz. Of course, being up to my ears in students doesn't help me with research time.

Cheers.
LC