An experiment

[John G]

Hi John,

http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/hiram.htm

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,

But where's the substantive Jewish connection? The cited source is merely an updated version of an eighteenth century British freemasonary myth.

[David Orsam]

Hi John,

http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/hiram.htm

This is exactly what I said in #25. The murder story is entirely Masonic. Nothing to do with Jewish history or mythology. It's all about architecture and the building of the temple, hence the masonic aspect.

And John is absolutely correct. The three rufffians, Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum, were first named in eighteenth century masonic texts. They have never featured in any Jewish texts or tradition.

[Elamarna]

"If you would like to answer the second question (instead of practicing the contents of the question) - what would your answer be?"


Pierre, not sure what you mean by practicing the contents of the question? a typo?

Ok if we say ignore the word stem, already saidi struggle with the stem for a non existant word, so it could be jew, (given juwes does not occur) or more probably juw or even juwe at most we are left with es or s are we not.
we must be looking for a word other than the word in the text, but I have no idea where to start, will think again about it overnight.

while I am prepared to ignore the stem of one word form a line of text can I ask what the logic is for for doing such?

On a separate point in the original post you said:

"Another problem is the double negative "not be blamed for nothing". "

This is not a problem for those of us raised in London, in the "working classes" which I was born into, such use of language was common even 20 years ago, true with the influx of American TV shows it is less so now, but I have never seen it as problematical.

you continue :

"So as long as we do not understand that word, we will absolutely not be able to understand the double negative. Therefore, an hypothesis should be that if we manage to understand the "juwes", we will also understand the double negative."

Whilst I am fully prepared to accept Juwes does not mean Jews I see no reason at present to think the text has any other meaning than what it clearly states.
However if something comes forward to challenge this view it will be interesting to see what that is.

Thinking outside the box is only needed if you cannot find a solution that works, on the issue of the double negative I do not see why such thinking is required. Where as it may be for the word juwes

regards

s

[Errata]

This is exactly what I said in #25. The murder story is entirely Masonic. Nothing to do with Jewish history or mythology. It's all about architecture and the building of the temple, hence the masonic aspect.

And John is absolutely correct. The three rufffians, Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum, were first named in eighteenth century masonic texts. They have never featured in any Jewish texts or tradition.

Your not kidding. There's a lot of problems with that story from a Jewish point of view. Starting with the fact that our language doesn't have a "J" sound.

[Craig H]

Hi Pierre

Thanks for the link about "stem".

I can't find "juw" or "ju" or "wes" as possible stems.

Unless you're referring to "ju" as the first two letters of the three Ruffians (mentioned above) ?

Rgds
Craig

[Pcdunn]

Hi,

Why hasn´t the Goulston Street Graffiti been explained?

As I said, I would like to invite you to an experiment.

Many have been used to thinking from inside of the box, and understand the writing from a perspective of the frame set by earlier generations and from people from 1888, from the police etc.

I think we need to get rid of the box.

Let´s start with two interesting questions and please try to answer the first and then the second:

1. What would happen if we forget about the interpretation of this word as having anything to do with jews?

2. What would happen if one uses a dictionary to try and understand the word?

As you can see, I am not asking about the meaning of the text but I am asking you about a method for thinking about the meaning of the text.


Kind regards, Pierre

Interesting reasoning, Pierre. My answers:

1) We would drop preconceptions as to the meaning of the unfamiliar word. We would also open our minds to alternate meanings: A family surname? A gang name? Thieves' cant or street slang for a type of criminal occupation which has been lost to us today?

2) We would be researching the word from a viewpoint free of preconceptions, and might be able to discern its meaning.

[Pcdunn]

Word stem often refers to the beginning of related words, often from other languages. "Ju" is the beginning of "juvenile", derived from Latin, as is the Spanish word "jovenes"-- as you can see, the word stem may vary in different languages.

What if "juwes" is NOT an English word? I know French has been suggested, but that assumes a misspelling, and still refers to Jews.
Can we find the word in any foreign-language dictionaries?

[Abby Normal]

perhaps the writer just mis spelled it?

what a revolutionary concept.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Pcdunn;372877]Interesting reasoning, Pierre. My answers:

Hi PcDunn,

You have answered the questions and I find your answers very interesting.

1) We would drop preconceptions as to the meaning of the unfamiliar word.

I agree with that. And where could this lead us, do you think? If we forget everything about "jew-s", perhaps we would be able to see something else?

We would also open our minds to alternate meanings:

Yes, then we would be on our way to knew knowledge with a new method. But what is this method? Is it to forget every letter in the now seemingly meaningless word "juwes"? Or should we try something else?

A family surname? A gang name? Thieves' cant or street slang for a type of criminal occupation which has been lost to us today?

So we could manage to disconnect ourselves from the idea about jews - but would that disconnection per se mean that we can disconnect ourselves totally (100 percent) from the now meaningless word "juwes" and the letters it contains?

Because if we did, our method could take us anywhere. Is that reasonable, given that we are analysing an historical source?

2) We would be researching the word from a viewpoint free of preconceptions, and might be able to discern its meaning.

Does this mean that we could chose any word in our dictionary, making a totally random interpretation?

Kind regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre

Thanks for the link about "stem".

I can't find "juw" or "ju" or "wes" as possible stems.

Unless you're referring to "ju" as the first two letters of the three Ruffians (mentioned above) ?

Rgds
Craig

Hi Craig,

So something seems to be missing from the stem, or what could be wrong?

Kind regards, Pierre

[Geddy2112]

Personally and I'm by no means an expert but I'm not sure the graffiti has anything to do with anything. Least of all the Jews.

I was media 'brainwashed' to understand it was in ref to the Masons as mentioned on first page and that the murders were some form of message and performed to some Masonic ritual.

However and like I said I'm no expert but is there any 'decent' proof that the writings had anything to do with JtR? Is there evidence to prove roughly what time the graffiti was written?

I personally just think it's too unclear to have a meaning linked to JtR. If JtR was sending a message I'm sure it would have been more clear as to it's meaning.

[Harry D]

perhaps the writer just mis spelled it?

what a revolutionary concept.

[Abby Normal]

Personally and I'm by no means an expert but I'm not sure the graffiti has anything to do with anything. Least of all the Jews.

I was media 'brainwashed' to understand it was in ref to the Masons as mentioned on first page and that the murders were some form of message and performed to some Masonic ritual.

However and like I said I'm no expert but is there any 'decent' proof that the writings had anything to do with JtR? Is there evidence to prove roughly what time the graffiti was written?

I personally just think it's too unclear to have a meaning linked to JtR. If JtR was sending a message I'm sure it would have been more clear as to it's meaning.

Hi Geddy
no there is no proof that it was written by the killer.
But To me there is just to much coincidence that it wasn't. Its found written directly above the bloody apron of his last victim.
No matter how hazy the meaning, it references jews, and the killer knew he had been spotted/interrupted by several jews that night. One that pissed him off so much that he yelled a jewish slur at him.

considering that the graffiti was written on a predominantly jewish residence, it wasn't noted as being there any earlier, there is no evidence of any other graffiti in the immediate area, I think more than likely that someone would have noticed it and cleaned it off. IMHO that graffiti never saw the light of day.

Plus you have many police at the time who thought it was connected.

In terms of the meaning, ive said many times its irrelevant what any of us think what he meant and/or think he should have written something more "clear" in referencing the murder etc. It was perfectly clear in his mind why he wrote it the way he did. Maybe he wrote it intentionally ambiguous-who knows?

All things considered, with the events of that evening, Im 95% sure it was written by the killer.

[Abby Normal]

also, in terms of the way it should be read. I remember a few years back an expert on Victorian cockney language said that the best interpretation would be: the jews wont take the blame for anything. I think that sounds about right.

[David Orsam]

Well, Pierre, your two questions have been answered so now perhaps you would be so kind as to answer a couple questions yourself.

1. Do you have a notion as to what the word "Juwes" actually meant in the writing on the wall?

2. If so, what is it?

I can't help but wonder if it is going to turn out to have some sort of "metaphorical" meaning that only you are able to decode for us but perhaps you will put any such thoughts to bed by answering these questions.