An experiment

[Abby Normal]

Slightly off topic, but in terms of what the writing means it's clear to me.

I grew up in a working class environment, in a certain part of England, where old habits die hard and so it is not uncommon up here to hear phrases, idioms, colloquialisms, sub-standard grammar; which died out a while back in other parts of the country.

The line: "will not be blamed for nothing" makes perfect sense to me and reasonably has only one meaning.

When I was growing up my Grandma would say: "you're not getting wrong for nothing". 'Getting wrong' means being told off up here. What she meant was: "you're being told off because you deserve it/have done something wrong". She also used to say: "you won't be told" - meaning even though you have done something wrong you won't hear it.

It makes absolutely no sense to say: "The Jews are not the men who will be blamed for nothing". On the other hand: "The Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing" is something that makes sense to me being from a Working Class background.

It means the Jews somehow escape blame even though they deserve blame.

Not that I think the writing has anything to do with the murders, I don't. I think someone held a grievance. Interestingly, whomever wrote it didn't claim: "The Jews are the people...." which to me would be logical in the event of a general problem with "the Jews".

It can be translated as the Jews wont take the blame for anything. And he said the Jews are the MEN, because he had been seen by a bunch of Jewish men that night.

[Elamarna]

It can be translated as the Jews wont take the blame for anything. And he said the Jews are the MEN, because he had been seen by a bunch of Jewish men that night.

Hi Abby


Lets assume for the sake of discussion you are right and the killer did write the GSG.

Lets assume he had been seen by a group of Jewish men

Lets assume your interpretation of the words is right.

We have the "Jews won't take the blame for anything " .

What is it that they won't take the blame for, that causes him to stop and write this?

Their seeing of him, did not stop him, why would he then be angry as one assumes he was to do this?

Why would he write this, What was the purpose in your view?

can you explain that to me please.

All the best

Steve

[SuspectZero]

Hi Abby


Lets assume for the sake of discussion you are right and the killer did write the GSG.

Lets assume he had been seen by a group of Jewish men

Lets assume your interpretation of the words is right.

We have the "Jews won't take the blame for anything " .

What is it that they won't take the blame for, that causes him to stop and write this?

Their seeing of him, did not stop him, why would he then be angry as one assumes he was to do this?

Why would he write this, What was the purpose in your view?

can you explain that to me please.

All the best

Steve

Because he was interrupted and was forced to kill again. They are to blame for that.

[Elamarna]

Because he was interrupted and was forced to kill again. They are to blame for that.

Hi SuspectZero

If that is true, surely he was interrupted by one man, not men. therefore why add "men"?
Writing it exposes him to being seen and identified, and while the same is true of a graffiti writer, the results are being caught are dramatically different, in one case bad words, a possible beating, on the other certain death by Hanging

To me it still remains completely unclear, unproven and unlikely that the killer wrote the GSG.

regards

Steve

[Ausgirl]

Interestingly, whomever wrote it didn't claim: "The Jews are the people...." which to me would be logical in the event of a general problem with "the Jews".

The use of 'the men' makes perfect sense in the context of singling out a cultural group. The Jews are 'the men', as opposed to the China-men or English-men.

And seeing as there was a lot of Jews in Whitechapel, doing pretty well for themselves in various parts of the trade community, there was probably a lot of non-Jews who had a real problem with that and were bitter about real or perceived inequities.

I've been meaning to look up more info on the Jewish community there at that time. Maybe there was a legal case causing controversy, or there was some trade issues..

It seems to me, from the way that sentence is put together, like a message about a particular grudge, someone feeling hard done by because "the Jews" get away with whatever, and this guy (alone or speaking for "his" group) has a real problem with that. Like, he or his group may have even been blamed for 'whatever', but the Jews weren't - and he believed this was because they were Jews (as opposed to them actually not being to blame, or avoided blame for some other reason).

I wholly agree re the comments about the double negative meaning "won't be blamed for anything" -- it was also very common in Aus (though employed with a slightly different syntax) and I've always understood the graffito that way, for that reason. I understand how it may sound odd to posh folks and Americans, but us colonials know what's what, wot.

[Pierre]

Because he was interrupted and was forced to kill again. They are to blame for that.

So he would have been a good boy if it weren´t for some Jewish men?

Why did he not explain who were to blame at the other murder sites? Why no writing on the wall in Hanbury Street, for example?

I mean, perhaps he was interrupted when he killed Polly Nichols as well! There were no extensive mutilations. The skirt was pulled down, Lechmere said he saw a policeman at the murdersite.

Why didn´t the killer write on the wall in Hanbury Street:

"The Cart men are the men that Will not be Blamed for nothing"?

The mutilations on Chapman were worse than those on Nichols.

Regards, Pierre

[Fleetwood Mac]

It can be translated as the Jews wont take the blame for anything. And he said the Jews are the MEN, because he had been seen by a bunch of Jewish men that night.

I agree with the translation, but more likely this is some argument, misinformed or otherwise, about "the Jews" causing problems for the locals. Possibly to do with Jewish families being prepared to shelter in over-crowded accomodation, thereby pushing up rents. This was a very common source of 'grievance' in Victorian London.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Excellent I like it, and I presume you are possibly from the North East of England like myself as what you say make perfect sense...

I am from the North East, County Durham.

And yes: "you won't be blamed for nothing" translates to "you simply will not accept blame under any circumstances".

[AlanG]

I like the theory that the graffiti is close to the Jewish market, where an angry customer may of wrote it. To me anyway, that theory makes the most sense.

[Elamarna]

I like the theory that the graffiti is close to the Jewish market, where an angry customer may of wrote it. To me anyway, that theory makes the most sense.

Yes AlanG, I tend to agree,

the two most prevalent views are as you know:

1. The killer wrote it, presumably to throw the blame on someone other than himself, in this scenario the killer is non Jewish.

2. It is anti-Semitic graffiti aimed at either the market traders or the Jewish community in general.

Both have arguments for and against.
At present without any further evidence it really is a matter of personal choice, which avenue you go down.

I follow 2 at present.

Steve

[c.d.]

I am from the North East, County Durham.

And yes: "you won't be blamed for nothing" translates to "you simply will not accept blame under any circumstances".

Unfortunately it can also be translated as "We Jews are sick of being blamed for things we didn't do."

It is very trendy now for celebrities to take public shots at other celebrities for one reason or another. What you can be certain of is that the celebrity who was the recipient of the insult will fire back. Same with sports fans. You insult their fan base they will insult yours. It is human nature. The point being is that if you find graffiti insulting a particular group you will at some point see them respond in kind. So, if an area has a lot of anti-Jewish graffiti it would not be surprising to see pro-Jewish graffiti in response. Thus the GSG can be taken either way. We simply don't know what the author meant.

c.d.

[Harry D]

I like the theory that the graffiti is close to the Jewish market, where an angry customer may of wrote it. To me anyway, that theory makes the most sense.

Does it?

Wouldn't he want to give proper vent to his frustration? Why then would he scribble a small, ambiguously-worded message?

It makes more sense if it were the killer. He scrawls a small piece of graffiti, as he's fresh from a crime scene and obviously doesn't want to draw any unwanted attention, and leaves a piece of evidence behind to prove its authorship.

Why did he write it? What did he mean? Hell if I know, but it's some coincidence that both murders that night have antisemitic elements, namely "Lipski!" & the GSG.

[c.d.]

Hello Harry,

I normally agree with you but it seem that here you are making some very big assumptions namely that Schwartz witnessed Stride's murder which I don't think he did (just a street argument) and that the GSG is anti-Jewish which may not be the case.

c.d.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

I normally agree with you but it seem that here you are making some very big assumptions namely that Schwartz witnessed Stride's murder which I don't think he did (just a street argument) and that the GSG is anti-Jewish which may not be the case.

c.d.

Hello, CD.

Do you believe Schwartz is a credible witness? If so, it's practically nailed on that 'BS Man' was Stride's murderer. Unless you suppose that after being accosted by one man, she was murdered by another moments later?

The GSG can be read both ways, but the Cockney double-negative and the location of the graffiti would favour one interpretation over another.

[c.d.]

Hello Harry,

I don't have any reason for believing that Schwartz would deliberately lie.

I don't find it in any way out of the ordinary that a lone woman on the street in Whitechapel late at night as the pubs were closing would get hassled by a possibly drunken man. Swanson allowed for that possibility as well. So I don't see it as being nailed on as you say. I think it was just a coincidence and that her killer came along shortly after the B.S. man had left the scene.

I agree that the GSG is probably more likely anti-Jewish but a pro-Jewish sentiment can not be ruled out and there is always the possibility that the killer (if he wrote it) was himself actually Jewish and used it as a way to throw the police of the track.

c.d.