just an idea - thoughts please :)

[joelhall]

just had a thought. now i dont believe for a minute that this killer would have written to the police, press nor anyone else. the crimes themselves are enough of a chilling message. the idea he even would doesnt sit well with me, let alone pondering which he could have written.

but some ideas i have on the murders strike up another notion. for example i cant believe a single killer could take such risks and evade capture, without at least one accomplice. this begs the question - is it possible that one or two of the letters could have been written by someone who knew who the killer was?

[Bailey]

Hey Joel

I think it's certainly possible... but why? If it was someone who knew something and wanted to point the finger, none of the letters seem to really indicate that, and least not from memory - a perusal of Letters From Hell, or a sudden deluge of responses to this thread may contradict me there.

B.

[joelhall]

i was thinking more of someone perhaps involved to some extent revelling in the murders, rather than their knowledge. taking glee in it.

[Sam Flynn]

i was thinking more of someone perhaps involved to some extent revelling in the murders, rather than their knowledge. taking glee in it.

...no doubt twirling his moustache and laughing manically at every turn, Joel Jack needed no accomplice to do what he did, and it's very unlikely that he had one - they'd have been more of a hindrance than a help during the murders, and more of a risk than an asset after them.

[joelhall]

no. but i cant see that he could do this, as its quite an involved to nick organs in the middle of the street at night, and keep a good ear & eye out for witnesses & police. to do that, not just once but at least three times, that doesnt just make the killer seem lucky, it makes him seem charmed.

[Sam Flynn]

no. but i cant see that he could do this, as its quite an involved to nick organs in the middle of the street at night, and keep a good ear & eye out for witnesses & police. to do that, not just once but at least three times, that doesnt just make the killer seem lucky, it makes him seem charmed.

...or a very fast worker, Joel, which Jack almost certainly was. The fact that his playground was one great, ill-lit sprawl, and the fact that he targeted vulnerable and desperate victims helped him far more than any accomplice could have done. Kürten needed no accomplice, and he was quite close in "spirit" to JTR. Peter Sutcliffe needed no apprentice, but - vehicle notwithstanding - he did pretty much what Jack did too, and worked alone. Ditto any number of other serial killers we might mention.

[joelhall]

ive no doubt he was fast. in fact i believe it would have taken less than 10 minutes. nonetheless, he never knew if someone was about to turn the corner. only 2 of the crime scenes would have the chance of giving him enough time to react before he was seen (berner street/mitre square). the darkness would work against him too.

i also believe he used an accomplice to give the most chance of catching the victims by surprise (i.e. a diversion).

still, with regards to the letters, ill put you in the 'no' camp i take it

[Shelley]

Joelhall,
Anythings possible, but with the view that there was vigallante commites from Lusk and women in the area and the shock to the public of mutilating women in such a prudish time, along with the police didn't come up with a reward for catching the killer, the likelyhood was it was a single killer and as someone has said it could have been more of a hinderance than a help. i choose to believe that none of the letters or postcards came from the killer, although some have good thoughts in concerning the Lusk letter is a possible letter that may have come from the killer. Reading other posts people have put in a lot of good views and information, even though i form my own opinions, i can still change my mind if i see another good point of view. I choose not to believe in the Lusk Letter coming from the killer, however now i am sitting on the fence with it, as some input from others have good views in a possibility that it could be from the killer, it's just that someone else informed me that the bit of kidney that came with the letter didn't match Eddowes.

[Shelley]

...or a very fast worker, Joel, which Jack almost certainly was. The fact that his playground was one great, ill-lit sprawl, and the fact that he targeted vulnerable and desperate victims helped him far more than any accomplice could have done. Kürten needed no accomplice, and he was quite close in "spirit" to JTR. Peter Sutcliffe needed no apprentice, but - vehicle notwithstanding - he did pretty much what Jack did too, and worked alone. Ditto any number of other serial killers we might mention.

I'm inclined to agree with Sam here, although i think it may have been possible that JTR may well have used Eddowes tiner box for some extra light, but yet again there was a lamp-post in the square and it may have been enough. With the mutilation of Eddowes face it seems like a projection of his anger on her face, when people get angry they are prone to making mistakes and the amount of time wouldn't have occurred to him, to my mind i think this could well have been due to the smell of stale alcohol on Eddowes breath, as Nicholls and Chapman wouldn't have had that smell about them, Nicholls did have a tipple but i think she covered the smell up or didn't have that much to drink to smell so horrible, the killer had attempted mutilation on Nicholls, so he may well have been disturbed and left the scene. With having said that it's likely that the killer did not have an accomplice with him. JTR likely to my mind had an alcoholic mother and was possibly an alcoholic himself, but he may not have been an alcoholic.

[Mutt]

i was thinking more of someone perhaps involved to some extent revelling in the murders, rather than their knowledge. taking glee in it.

Perhaps. However I believe that many, if not all of the letters, were likely written by morbid fools, looking to get their jolly's from terrifying the populace. There was a great deal of civil unrest at the time, these murders could have been used by unhappy people to vent their frustrations.

With that said, I would not be surprised to learn that the killer did in fact write one or more of the letters. It is not unheard of for killers to taunt the press; Zodiac, Dennis Rader, The Padua Killer, and others are all known or believed to have taunted the media or police with letters.

[Shelley]

Perhaps. However I believe that many, if not all of the letters, were likely written by morbid fools, looking to get their jolly's from terrifying the populace. There was a great deal of civil unrest at the time, these murders could have been used by unhappy people to vent their frustrations.

With that said, I would not be surprised to learn that the killer did in fact write one or more of the letters. It is not unheard of for killers to taunt the press; Zodiac, Dennis Rader, The Padua Killer, and others are all known or believed to have taunted the media or police with letters.

I think it tends to be what the killers motives are, if they may have thrill seeking then yes they can taunt the police, but i don't consider JTR to be of the ' Thrill ' kind The Marquis De Sade was a sadist and gave birth to the name sadist, he would frequently jot down notes or letters and was a thrill type, however i do not think JTR fits this category, so i am inclined to think that he wouldn't write to anyone, it is a shock to leave bodies out in the open, but in the case of Ed Gein his mind was not working to shock and he was a disorganised killer and schizophrenic pounded with religion from his mother, i think the only thing that Ed Gein left out in the open was the graves he opened up, but he was so disorganised the victims bodies were left in basements like butcher carcasses, but he did have human bones and skin etc inside his house along with some Nazi memorabilia, it wasn't to shock it was just a taste of his nature and he was so mentally gone, so to speak, that the evidence was so disorganised and close to home to the extent that it was in his home. Organised killings are usually buried or thrown in a river etc to hide them. With organised killers who intend to shock place bodies with meaning of the area they leave them in, and where they can be found and taunts are sent to the police. I'm sure JTR just left his victims were they were subdued without the intention to shock, for if he had intention to shock, he would have perhaps sent a piece of body of each victim to the police directly along with a taunting letter or card and all his victims would have been splayed in away that was shockingly sexual, something like legs wide open and agape showing the clitoris fully exposed along with the breasts open and displayed for all to oogle at.

[Mutt]

Shelley,

I respectfully disagree. I beleive that there is a noticable amount of showmanship in the Whitechapel murderer's crimes. And that same sense of showmanship or "look what I did" that seems evident in the crime scene's themselves, could translate into letters or communications with the police.

[celee]

Hi,

I do not know, I guess since the Detectives seemed to believe most of them were fake if not all of them, I am going to go with that.

I think the Lusk kidney and letter may be from the Killer. However, he did not sighn that Letter Jack the Ripper. I do not believe the From Hell letter and the Lusk parcell were from the same person.

Your friend, Brad

[Shelley]

Shelley,

I respectfully disagree. I beleive that there is a noticable amount of showmanship in the Whitechapel murderer's crimes. And that same sense of showmanship or "look what I did" that seems evident in the crime scene's themselves, could translate into letters or communications with the police.

To which and what of the crimes scenes do you consider to be showmanship Mutt?

[Mutt]

The killer could have at least made an attempt to cover up or dispose of the bodies. However he did not. In another thread, I wrote the following during a similar discussion, a comment that seems appropriate.

The bodies were left in the open. This could be the product of circumstances, but over the course of several killings a general sense of showmanship seems to be present. This could either be an off handed dismissal of the women's bodies, the killer's desire to display the ruined corpses, or he had no choice in the location of the crime, but felt it needed to be carried out none the less. The first impression I have of the photographs and the locations of the bodies is a 'look what I did' sensation. So I would tend to lean toward the idea that the killer was displaying his work.

If the death of the women was the purpose of the act, then the knife wound to the neck should have sufficed. The fact that the killer took the time to disfigure or disembowel his target may imply that the act itself had meaning. If that is the case, then the killer may want the product of his rage known to the public, he worked hard, now he's showing off his finished product.

The old maxim comes to mind; “If the act has no meaning then the act is the meaning.”