just an idea - thoughts please :)

[Errata]

Evil is mentally ill Carol. It's what we now call psychopathic. It requires no supernatural agency and the latest evidence suggests it is a congenital condition.

And you are right. Many believe Jtr to have been psychopathic or evil if you prefer.



Greg

I think the new numbers are that 1 in 25 people are sociopathic. And clearly they (or maybe we) aren't all killers. It can be congenital. But just as often it's adaptive. But it isn't an illness per se. Illnesses have symptoms, causes and effects. Sociopathy doesn't. It is a state of being. Like being a brunette, or "double jointed", or left handed.

The thing to remember in psychology is that nothing is an illness unless it causes dysfunction. A number of people with Autism are sociopathic by the very nature of their disease. They aren't harmful, or dangerous, and it causes no dysfunction. Sociopathy also makes people very good businessmen. It isn't a problem in their lives so it isn't a mental illness. When sociopaths start committing crimes, or otherwise injuring people, then it's a problem. Then it is Antisocial Personality Disorder which is different in some pretty subtle ways.

Sociopaths aren't evil by nature. And of course it all depends on how you define evil. The way most people define it is a bad way. I don't think there is a good way. I've abandoned the notion altogether. I think that often labeling someone or something as "evil" is hypocritical by nature. If you say someone is evil, then you dismiss them. They become unworthy of your regard or attention. Unworthy of empathy or respect. Now if a killer had regard, empathy and respect for their victim, they wouldn't have killed, and wouldn't be "evil". If we don't have empathy and respect for the killer, then a: often we then become the killers through judicial murder and b:we are engaging in behavior we have previously already defined as "evil". Much easier to take the judgement out of it.

[The Grave Maurice]

Thank you for NOT calling it "Ockham's Razor.

My pleasure, Lynn. I'm also rather tired of that tag.

[lynn cates]

insane

Hello Malcolm. What precisely are you understanding by "insane"? Are any forms of insanity precluded?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

hasty

Hello Ruby. Indeed. But what if murder were not the original intention? What if that happened on the spur of the moment?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

they are mentally disorganised, they have not enough grip on reality and this varies from moments of relative normality to total shambles and even in normal conversation when they're ok, they still seem very strange, they tend to talk Bullshit or about strange topics!

Malcolm, you are not referring to Casebook-ers are you ?

[RedBundy13]

Instead of confidence, suppose he were totally dissociated and unaware of his surroundings?

Hi Lynn,

Do you really believe that? Or are you just saying maybe? The idea that JtR wasnt aware of his surroundings doesnt hold water in my book. Now ill admit that anything is possible, but the idea that he didnt know what else was going on because he was too preoccupied with killing Annie doesnt work for me. Simply because he was so successful and he got away with everything with nary a witness.
I believe he would not have come close to killing as many women as he did if he wasnt completely aware of his surroundings. If you look at Stride for an example, I think he was aware that someone was approaching and made a quick exit before he was seen.
Now I completely understand your point of view and that is that there were multiple killers and if that is the case then yes, you might be right about the killer not being aware that there is someone less then 10 feet away. How else could you make sense of killer sticking around to finish what he started when there was someone so close to him, that all that person would have to do was stand on his stairs and look to see where that noise he had heard came from and the killer would have been caught red handed, literally.

[Rubyretro]

I agree with you Redbundy

[RedBundy13]

Cadosh would have run, fainted, or been stabbed, perhaps to death, had he jumped the fence (which I doubt he would have done). Or would have he needed to rush again to the privy ?

Hey D,

Maybe he wouldnt have to jump the fence, maybe he could have just stayed in his own yard and screamed bloody murder. And when the killer tried to beat a hasty retreat he could have follwed, at a safe distance of course, and continued his screams of murder until others had arrived.
Just one scenario, Im sure there are a million others...

[RedBundy13]

I agree with you Redbundy

Thanks Ruby

[Malcolm X]

Malcolm, you are not referring to Casebook-ers are you ?

ha ha... that's great, well said

[Malcolm X]

``Instead of confidence, suppose he were totally dissociated and unaware of his surroundings?``

if you think this, then you need to carefully study JTR all over again from scratch.

what you describe is close to total insanity and JTR was nothing like this, i know because i've met many people like this.

an insane person doesn't know his own name/ has no idea what planet he's on, a Schitzophenia halucinates, he also hears voices, thinks people are watching him, becomes paranoid, turns to Christ for answers etc, becomes violent.... this is nothing like JTR.

you could never commit murder and escape arrest being like this, plus the murder scenes/ victims would look far worst...... even MJK looks quite controlled, he's ripped her apart but carefully laid the body parts around the victim, or placed them on the table, a Schitzo would rip her apart with his teeth and throw the organs up against the wall, plus she'd be covered in bruises and bite marks too, she would look like she'd been killed by a pack of Baboons, no MJK looks like a twisted Autopsy.

plus, added to this the first 3 murder scenes are quite tidy, even Eddowes is quite tidy too, there's not much mess around the victim, he's been very quick and efficient.

i'm suspicious of the face mutilations and the mess of MJK, this is now looking very odd inded, especially if JTR suddenly stopped

but with regards to insanity, I'm surprised that we're even talking about this

[lynn cates]

unaware

Hello Red.

"Do you really believe that? Or are you just saying maybe?"

Believe it wholeheartedly.

"The idea that JtR wasnt aware of his surroundings doesn't hold water in my book. Now ill admit that anything is possible, but the idea that he didn't know what else was going on because he was too preoccupied with killing Annie doesn't work for me."

No, I am not saying that. I am claiming that he was in the midst of a violent episode and highly delusional (as per chart). I think he tried to get spare change from Annie. Her rejection triggered him (delusion of hated wife); he became enraged; strangled her; cut her up with the knives he carried with him (delusion of dead animal).

"Simply because he was so successful and he got away with everything with nary a witness."

Successful? Well he killed 2 and then was caught. Witness? What about Mrs. Long?

"I believe he would not have come close to killing as many women as he did if he wasn't completely aware of his surroundings. If you look at Stride for an example, I think he was aware that someone was approaching and made a quick exit before he was seen."

What has Liz to do with this?

"Now I completely understand your point of view and that is that there were multiple killers and if that is the case then yes, you might be right about the killer not being aware that there is someone less then 10 feet away. How else could you make sense of killer sticking around to finish what he started when there was someone so close to him, that all that person would have to do was stand on his stairs and look to see where that noise he had heard came from and the killer would have been caught red handed, literally."

Thanks. Yes indeed.

(By the way, don't want to wreck Joel's thread. If you would care to continue, perhaps on Chris' Isenschmid thread?)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

A myth is as good as a mile.

Hello Malcolm.

"if you think this, then you need to carefully study JTR all over again from scratch."

Can't. Too busy studying unicorns. At least they MIGHT exist. (heh-heh)

If you insist on lumping these 5 murders together, then you must be prepared to produce the same results as the last 123 years have produced.

But, as I said above, I don't need to wander so far afield.

Meet me on the Isenschmid thread? I am resolved to be a good lad.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

It's not 'lumping' these 5 murders together by simply observing that the killer in each case brought with him: a knife that was sharp enough to inflict a fatal neck wound; an ability to use it and inflict said wound; and the apparent judgement and good sense not to take it out or use it until he was satisfied that he was not being observed. The killer may not have cared too much because he was armed with a sharp knife, or because he was in no fit state of mind to care about his personal security. But the fact remains that nobody did ever see a killer in action, although the 4 outdoor victims were discovered soon afterwards.

I suppose if you only have your man doing 2 of the 5, you don't need him to have possessed any judgement or good sense as long as he had the luck of the devil - twice. But isn't there some evidence to suggest that the killer of Nichols absolutely had his wits about him and judged the timing of his departure rather finely to avoid being seen in the act?

Love,

Caz
X

[Errata]

First of all, I think anyone who kills for any reason other than profit is going to suffer from a certain degree of situational blindness. Not necessarily from any insanity or mental defect, but often in that "you're reading a book and the phone rings and it takes you a minute to figure out what on earth that sound is" kind of way. When you concentrate on something, in the grips of strong emotion, or are lost in thought you aren't as aware of your surroundings.

On the other hand, people with a mental illness who are "highly delusional" and literally have no concept of where they are cannot interact with their surroundings. If a guy in London truly believes he is in his childhood village in Switzerland he cannot interact in London. He's not going to walk into walls or anything, but he can't navigate. It is highly distressing, and it's why such people do not last very long outside of an institution.

Lynn, delusions don't really work that way. Delusions make sense as long as you accept the basic premise. There is no reason for someone to switch delusions so suddenly from a person being a hated wife to a dead animal. People with delusions are not restricted in terms of reality the way we are. One can easily kill his hated wife, and believe that he killed her AND that she is still out to get him somewhere out there. Or believe that since it didn't relieve his feelings of persecution that he in fact didn't kill her. Despite the fact he is staring at her body. Besides, these women weren't field dressed or butchered (I mean, like a cow) so there's no reason to think he thought these women were dead animals.

I don't think Jack was mentally ill, but I will never say it isn't possible. But you need a delusion along the lines of "this woman swallowed my soul and I need to get it back". The delusion does not necessarily have to explain the choice of victim, but it does have to explain the mutilations. I mean, if I thought I found a dead animal in the middle of the street, I wouldn't butcher it. If I thought that fresh uteruses would bring my sainted mother back to life... Basically I think if it were a product of a delusion, it would have to be for some kind of gain worth killing for.