Goulston Street Apron - FOLDED?

[BooksbyBJThompson]

In another casebook forum thread, entitled Detective Henry Smith, a copied excerpt "From Constable to Commissioner," XVI OF THE RIPPER AND HIS DEEDS—AND OF THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, SIR ROBERT ANDERSON

https://www.casebook.org/forum1998/messages/5/2536d2c9.html?971825479

"Goulston Street, Whitechapel, is a broad thoroughfare running
parallel with the Commercial Road, just one-third of
a mile from the Square, and in that street, at the
door of one of the model workmen's dwellings
erected by Peabody, he saw a light, and, halting,
found a constable of the Metropolitan Force looking
at the missing piece of apron. It was folded up,
and immediately above, on the wall, written in
chalk, were the words, "The Jews are the men
that won't be blamed for nothing."

This is the one and only time I've seen mention of the apron piece being FOLDED. Does anyone know if this detail is true???

Thank you.

[Tom_Wescott]

Interesting observation, BJ. I'd never noticed this before. I don't recall another mention of it having been folded.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[JeffHamm]

Interesting. I've no recollection of that being mentioned before either. Would make sense if he was wiping his hands and knife on it as suggested by the doctors ( piece a bit big so easier to use if folded up type thing, although really the size of it really shouldn't prevent such a use if not folded ).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Thinking a bit more, folded could also be consistent with the idea JtR went home, and later emerges to dump the apron (folded is easier to conceal under his jacket sort of thing). But that too could fit in with folding it as he leaves the area in order to both clean up and be able to conceal it quickly when done. Perhaps he discards it because it's a bit bulky under his coat, etc.

Are there any reports that suggest it wasn't folded? If we only have one report that describes its condition, and that says folded, then we need give that idea serious consideration. But if we have multiple other sources pointing to it just being in a heap, perhaps this is the odd one out, and as such needs to be viewed with some scepticism (not that we should believe it 100% in any case of course).

- Jeff

[Simon Wood]

As the apron was an after-thought, and not in Goulston Street at the time of its alleged discovery, the matter of whether or not it was folded is of no concern.

[Losmandris]

Never really thought about this but probably makes more sense it being folded. No sure it really changes anything but interesting observation none the less!

[Herlock Sholmes]

As Smith never saw the apron in situ I’m wondering if this is just a wording issue. Perhaps he used the word ‘folded’ because he’d been told that it was lying flat. Basically it was bunched up. Corners folded over etc.

[Trevor Marriott]

As Smith never saw the apron in situ I’m wondering if this is just a wording issue. Perhaps he used the word ‘folded’ because he’d been told that it was lying flat. Basically it was bunched up. Corners folded over etc.

It may have been folded to be produced as a court exhibit

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[BooksbyBJThompson]

To all who commented...

I realise that unless another source, this admission cannot be corroborated/slanted towards fact, but if true, speaks volumes about the person who dropped it. Yes?

To my knowledge, we don't know the measurements of the ripped portion, but I could well assume larger than a personal handkerchief from that era.

But as it had blood and fecal matter, who would be so careful in folding it??? To clean one's hands, one's knife, suggests a need to rid oneself with the stains, not take great care with them.

Is this a repeat performance of items placed at Chapman's feet? In terms of staging?

And if Smith is merely describing the apron as a court exhibit, the material by then with dried/caked on blood and feces, I rather doubt the material could be folded. Correct?

And why would Smith mention it being folded at all???

There's more to this off-hand mention. Cops are detail nuts. My father was a Constable. But I have never seen such a mention in any other document. Hence, it screamed out at me when I read the word.

FYI: My theory on Goulston is NOT cemented.

[c.d.]

But what if he had folded it when it was on his person? Would it be easier to conceal that way? So if it was folded when he took it out of his clothing why would he bother to unfold it when placing it on the ground?

c.d.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

But what if he had folded it when it was on his person? Would it be easier to conceal that way? So if it was folded when he took it out of his clothing why would he bother to unfold it when placing it on the ground?

c.d.

Possibly.
Going with that premise, can we assume he did NOT wrap the kidney in it as some say?

[c.d.]

Even if we can't come up with a reasonable explanation for folding the apron, I have trouble seeing it as any sort of clue. I just can't imagine anyone at Scotland Yard saying "aha! the apron is folded which means...." Wouldn't the apron and nearby GSG be sufficient for his purposes?

c.d.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Even if we can't come up with a reasonable explanation for folding the apron, I have trouble seeing it as any sort of clue. I just can't imagine anyone at Scotland Yard saying "aha! the apron is folded which means...." Wouldn't the apron and nearby GSG be sufficient for his purposes?

c.d.

It goes to the person's personality, habits, needs, wants.
From that, if you can collect enough of the above, it may lead one to the why, as per victim, location, message (symbollism).

Most people when panicked do not think to fold anything. Folding is a measured act. It takes time. It serves a specific purpose.

This person is obviously not panicked, and if this action is true, he is sacrificing time to fold. Why?

[GBinOz]

If he cut himself while visiting the wounds upon Eddowes, then might he have folded the apron in order to make it into an improvised bandage? Just brainstorming.

[The Rookie Detective]

Interesting discussion.


The idea that the killer took time to display and present his victim, and subsequently place items/clothing belonging to each of the victims post mortem, does suggest the killer had the presence of mind and awareness to measure the risk of being caught, against the need to carry out his ritual.

We have Chapman's personal items at her feet, Eddowes apron removed and then placed under the GSG, Kelly's body parts distributed around the room, Mckenzie's clay pipe, and multiple victims hats/bonnets left by the head.

With Stride it's less obvious....but we have the Cachou in her hand, possibly placed post mortem.

All of the murder sites had an element of deliberate staging by the killer.

Call it compulsion, ritual, expression, necessity; the killer incorporated certain thought processes into his method and applied them accordingly at the time.

The combination of frenzied cuts with the knife, with a deliberate intention to display and present a victim post mortem, speaks of a killer with multiple faces; someone who was able to conceal their intentions when choosing their victim, and then drop their facade at the point of initial attack.

This does not suggest a raving lunatic, but more a calm and calculated killer, who at face value came across as just another regular guy.

Fascinating.