A Brothel in Cardiff

[SuspectZero]

What about the Mary Kelly that appears in Cardiff in the 1881 Census as a nurse? She's living on St Mary's St and was born in 1864. I remember reading that Mary may have spent some time in an infirmary there. Perhaps it wasn't for illness but for training and she came out of it as a nurse?

[miss marple]

Mystery Singer, do you mean Mary's daughter who was supposely married to an absent seaman with the 3 month daughter martha in 1881? I have not looked into her yet . One of her brother's died young, finding birth certs for them is a blank so far they may not have been registered or could have been illigitimate.
My focus is on Mary Chandler/Davies. i have just ordered her marriage certificate with Davies.

Suspect Zero The Mary Kelly in 81 who was nurse is not relevant to my enquiry. MK was not a trained person and from her history never worked, except on her back.
The MK age 16 of no occupation is far more interesting, living a few doors away from a bunch of Davies and a brothel, as her decline into prostitution started in Cardiff. Again the family of John and Margaret is hard to trace so far no birth certs or marriage, they may have marriedin Ireland, but I am still on the case, more to be discovered.

Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

Mystery Singer, do you mean Mary's daughter who was supposely married to an absent seaman with the 3 month daughter martha in 1881? I have not looked into her yet . One of her brother's died young, finding birth certs for them is a blank so far they may not have been registered or could have been illigitimate.
My focus is on Mary Chandler/Davies. i have just ordered her marriage certificate with Davies.

Suspect Zero The Mary Kelly in 81 who was nurse is not relevant to my enquiry. MK was not a trained person and from her history never worked, except on her back.
The MK age 16 of no occupation is far more interesting, living a few doors away from a bunch of Davies and a brothel, as her decline into prostitution started in Cardiff. Again the family of John and Margaret is hard to trace so far no birth certs or marriage, they may have marriedin Ireland, but I am still on the case, more to be discovered.

Miss Marple

Miss M,

Have you discounted the possible John Kelly/Margaret Lewis marriage in Cardiff in June q. 1849? That would be just over a year prior to the birth of Bridget as per the 1851 census.

Gary

[miss marple]

Hi mrBarnett,

Have you got the details of the 1851 Census entry? For John and Margaret?


Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

Hi mrBarnett,

Have you got the details of the 1851 Census entry? For John and Margaret?


Miss Marple

I think so. They were living in Waterloo Place: John, 26, a labourer and Margaret, 28, both born in Ireland. One child, Bridget, 1, born in Cardiff.

[miss marple]

Thanks, will look into that.

[miss marple]

So the Cardiff Kellys have a Census presence fron 1851 to 81

1851 John Kelly age 26 born Ireland labourer
Margaret Kelly wife age 28 born Ireland
Bridget Kelly age 1 born Ireland[ this appears to be a mistake, she was born in Cardiff]
Waterloo Place St Johns Cardiff
1861
John Kelley age 31 born Ireland [ age is estimated by the enumarater and mis spelling of Kelly]
Margaret Kelley [age 31 estimated ] born Ireland
John's occupation is that of Hobler, a Hobler transports and tows vessels in and around docks. Hobler is also another name for a dock and quay labourer.
Bridget 12 born Cardiff
Margaret 7 born Cardiff
Ellen 4 born Cardiff
Herbert St St Marys Cardiff
1871
John Kelly age 47 born Ireland Coal runner? cant quite read after coal
Margaret age 48 born Ireland
Margaret age 16 charwoman born Cardiff
Ellen age 13
John age 7
Mary age 4
19 Homfrey St Cardiff.
So by 1871 Bridget has left,she married in 1869, and John and Margaret have had a son John and a daughter Mary.
1881
John Kelly 55 born in Ireland general labourer
Margaret 57 born in Ireland
Helen [Ellen] age 24 at home born Cardiff
John age 19 general labourer,
Mary Ann Kelly age 16 no occupation
19 Homfrey St
So sister Margaret had left and married a year after the 71 census, she was about 17.

There are some slight descrepances in ages but that is to be expected by enumeraters, they were not always 100 per cent accurate.

Miss Marple






E

[miss marple]

Just reporting the latest info.
John and Margaret Kelly DID marry in Cardiff in 1849, got the certificate.

John Kelly of full age [ over 21] bachelor labourer residing in Landaff
[ Cardiff] Father, John Kelly Labourer
Margaret Lewis full age spinster, Landaff. Father John Lewis Shoemaker;
They married in the Cathedral Church of Landaff. In the Rites of the Established church by Banns
John Kelly makes a mark for his signature [ probably illiterate]
Margaret Lewis signs her name,
The witnesses were Thomas Kelly and John Cople.

Daughter Bridget did not marry in 1869 got the cert, different Bridget.
Daughter Margaret did marry in 1872 at St Davids Cardiff in the Roman Catholic church age 20 Patrick Downey 21 Labourer, both living at 19 Homfrey St.
Patrick Downey's father Robert was a labourer. Margaret's father John was a coal trimmer.
Both marked their names
witnesses John Connell [marked]
Mary Maddox signature.

I suspect that father John Kelly was a catholic but Margaret Lewis was not so they married in the established church. If daughter Margaret was catholic and married another catholic hence the catholic ceremony.

Margaret and Patrick's son Robert Downey age 6 is living with his grandparents at Homfrey St in the 1881 census.

I have ordered more certificates. I am examining Homfrey ST in detail


Miss Marple

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Miss Marple.

Excellent discovery. I,m very interested in how far this lead can run. The arrival of Mary Ann Kelly of the approximate age as Mary Jane Kelly would have opened my eyes also. Are you considering Helen (Ellen) as ,,the cousin,,?

[miss marple]

Yes, I have a possible lead on that, but until I have completed my findings and put it all together am saying no more.

Miss Marple

[GUT]

Yes, I have a possible lead on that, but until I have completed my findings and put it all together am saying no more.

Miss Marple

Looking forward to it

[MsWeatherwax]

Feeling a slight twinge of excitement...can't wait to hear more, Miss Marple.

[MysterySinger]

Just as an aside, some time ago I came across some records on line whereby convicted persons from the South Wales area were transferred to prisons/establishments in London (Fulham was one of them I think). These papers were on an individual person basis and gave a description of the person, e.g. age, height, hair etc, and invariably included a photo of the individual. I trawled through a number of these looking for a possible match with someone of MJKs description, but didn't find one. However I only managed to look at a small proportion of these records. Struck me that it's how MJK could have ended up moving from Cardiff to London. I can't for the life of me recall the name of the resource, though I think I found it on one of the main sites e.g. Ancestry. The records I looked at were all of females and in the 1880s so of the correct time.

[miss marple]

Thanks, will check that out.

Miss Marple

[miss marple]

I have neglected this thread due to other projects but it is time to get back it, I have discovered the horrible fate of Elizabeth, the daughter of Mary Ann Chandler Davies, the brothal keeper of Homfrey St.
Firstly to get back to the Kellys of no 19. John Kelly the father, died in 1885 of disease of the heart [five years] and dropsy at 19 Homfrey St. His daughter Bridget was present. His age was down as 59.
As we know, his daughter Mary has disappeared after being on the 1881 census age 16. I have not found any marriages for her, so far and I did order certs of likely ones. I need to check deaths.
So who is the other Davies 16 year old Mary knows in 1881? Next door at no 21 is Joanna Davies nee Crowley who is about 30. She married a sailor John Davies in 1871 in a Catholic ceremony. in 1881 she is living with her father Mathew age 60,a widower, her brother John 27 ,brother Mathew, children Mary Ann 6 Alexander 4 and Mathew 2. Her husband is probably at sea.

The next post will be about Elizabeth Davies.
Miss Marple