A Brothel in Cardiff

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  • Robert St Devil
    replied
    Hello Miss Marple.

    Excellent discovery. I,m very interested in how far this lead can run. The arrival of Mary Ann Kelly of the approximate age as Mary Jane Kelly would have opened my eyes also. Are you considering Helen (Ellen) as ,,the cousin,,?

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  • miss marple
    replied
    Just reporting the latest info.
    John and Margaret Kelly DID marry in Cardiff in 1849, got the certificate.

    John Kelly of full age [ over 21] bachelor labourer residing in Landaff
    [ Cardiff] Father, John Kelly Labourer
    Margaret Lewis full age spinster, Landaff. Father John Lewis Shoemaker;
    They married in the Cathedral Church of Landaff. In the Rites of the Established church by Banns
    John Kelly makes a mark for his signature [ probably illiterate]
    Margaret Lewis signs her name,
    The witnesses were Thomas Kelly and John Cople.

    Daughter Bridget did not marry in 1869 got the cert, different Bridget.
    Daughter Margaret did marry in 1872 at St Davids Cardiff in the Roman Catholic church age 20 Patrick Downey 21 Labourer, both living at 19 Homfrey St.
    Patrick Downey's father Robert was a labourer. Margaret's father John was a coal trimmer.
    Both marked their names
    witnesses John Connell [marked]
    Mary Maddox signature.

    I suspect that father John Kelly was a catholic but Margaret Lewis was not so they married in the established church. If daughter Margaret was catholic and married another catholic hence the catholic ceremony.

    Margaret and Patrick's son Robert Downey age 6 is living with his grandparents at Homfrey St in the 1881 census.

    I have ordered more certificates. I am examining Homfrey ST in detail


    Miss Marple

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  • miss marple
    replied
    So the Cardiff Kellys have a Census presence fron 1851 to 81

    1851 John Kelly age 26 born Ireland labourer
    Margaret Kelly wife age 28 born Ireland
    Bridget Kelly age 1 born Ireland[ this appears to be a mistake, she was born in Cardiff]
    Waterloo Place St Johns Cardiff
    1861
    John Kelley age 31 born Ireland [ age is estimated by the enumarater and mis spelling of Kelly]
    Margaret Kelley [age 31 estimated ] born Ireland
    John's occupation is that of Hobler, a Hobler transports and tows vessels in and around docks. Hobler is also another name for a dock and quay labourer.
    Bridget 12 born Cardiff
    Margaret 7 born Cardiff
    Ellen 4 born Cardiff
    Herbert St St Marys Cardiff
    1871
    John Kelly age 47 born Ireland Coal runner? cant quite read after coal
    Margaret age 48 born Ireland
    Margaret age 16 charwoman born Cardiff
    Ellen age 13
    John age 7
    Mary age 4
    19 Homfrey St Cardiff.
    So by 1871 Bridget has left,she married in 1869, and John and Margaret have had a son John and a daughter Mary.
    1881
    John Kelly 55 born in Ireland general labourer
    Margaret 57 born in Ireland
    Helen [Ellen] age 24 at home born Cardiff
    John age 19 general labourer,
    Mary Ann Kelly age 16 no occupation
    19 Homfrey St
    So sister Margaret had left and married a year after the 71 census, she was about 17.

    There are some slight descrepances in ages but that is to be expected by enumeraters, they were not always 100 per cent accurate.

    Miss Marple






    E

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  • miss marple
    replied
    Thanks, will look into that.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by miss marple View Post
    Hi mrBarnett,

    Have you got the details of the 1851 Census entry? For John and Margaret?


    Miss Marple
    I think so. They were living in Waterloo Place: John, 26, a labourer and Margaret, 28, both born in Ireland. One child, Bridget, 1, born in Cardiff.

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  • miss marple
    replied
    Hi mrBarnett,

    Have you got the details of the 1851 Census entry? For John and Margaret?


    Miss Marple

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by miss marple View Post
    Mystery Singer, do you mean Mary's daughter who was supposely married to an absent seaman with the 3 month daughter martha in 1881? I have not looked into her yet . One of her brother's died young, finding birth certs for them is a blank so far they may not have been registered or could have been illigitimate.
    My focus is on Mary Chandler/Davies. i have just ordered her marriage certificate with Davies.

    Suspect Zero The Mary Kelly in 81 who was nurse is not relevant to my enquiry. MK was not a trained person and from her history never worked, except on her back.
    The MK age 16 of no occupation is far more interesting, living a few doors away from a bunch of Davies and a brothel, as her decline into prostitution started in Cardiff. Again the family of John and Margaret is hard to trace so far no birth certs or marriage, they may have marriedin Ireland, but I am still on the case, more to be discovered.

    Miss Marple

    Miss M,

    Have you discounted the possible John Kelly/Margaret Lewis marriage in Cardiff in June q. 1849? That would be just over a year prior to the birth of Bridget as per the 1851 census.

    Gary

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  • miss marple
    replied
    Mystery Singer, do you mean Mary's daughter who was supposely married to an absent seaman with the 3 month daughter martha in 1881? I have not looked into her yet . One of her brother's died young, finding birth certs for them is a blank so far they may not have been registered or could have been illigitimate.
    My focus is on Mary Chandler/Davies. i have just ordered her marriage certificate with Davies.

    Suspect Zero The Mary Kelly in 81 who was nurse is not relevant to my enquiry. MK was not a trained person and from her history never worked, except on her back.
    The MK age 16 of no occupation is far more interesting, living a few doors away from a bunch of Davies and a brothel, as her decline into prostitution started in Cardiff. Again the family of John and Margaret is hard to trace so far no birth certs or marriage, they may have marriedin Ireland, but I am still on the case, more to be discovered.

    Miss Marple

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  • SuspectZero
    replied
    What about the Mary Kelly that appears in Cardiff in the 1881 Census as a nurse? She's living on St Mary's St and was born in 1864. I remember reading that Mary may have spent some time in an infirmary there. Perhaps it wasn't for illness but for training and she came out of it as a nurse?

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  • MysterySinger
    replied
    Any idea what happened to Elizabeth Davies?

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  • miss marple
    replied
    There is a different birth for Davies and age but that is not significant, in 71 census it is struck though, ther are often mistakes in age and birthplace. Mary has the same birthplace in both censuses,the children, Elizabeth, Thomas and James match exactly in both census in age and birthplace and Davies occupation is the same in both census

    Mary Ann Chandler was convicted of running a brothel in Bridge st Cardiff on 22 Feb 1868, as she refused to give it up she was sentenced to one month with hard labour. When married to Davies she is running a brothel in Homfrey st later . She was a persistant offender. When she married Davies in 1870 as the children were described as step children in 71 census, the Chandler name was put down. By 81 the boys were Davies and the daughter was married.There is nothing complicated about it. Its quite straightfoward.

    Miss Marple
    Last edited by miss marple; 03-27-2016, 01:08 AM.

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  • SuspectZero
    replied
    Originally posted by miss marple View Post
    This is what I have got so far: Mary Davies age 40 was living at no 1 Homfray St in 1881. She is living with her husband David Davies age 46, a boiler maker and three children, Elizabeth age 19 [ married husband at sea] and grand daughter Martha age three months,Thomas age 14 and James age 12. Davies was not the father of the children, she married him in Cardiff in 1870. In the 71 census the children are described as stepchildren and Mary Davies first husband was Chandler.No1 is the house that was a brothel by 1883 and Davies living opposite. The whole of one side of the street had a reputation for brothels, even as late as the 1890s.

    At number 3 is another Davies, Thomas, a seaman age 23, unmarried living with his mother Harriet and sister.

    At number 19 is the 16 year old Mary Ann Kelly, daughter of John, a labourer.
    Yes I know she was born in Cardiff but her parents were born in Ireland. She has gone by the 91 census. So there are as many Kellys and Davies as fish in the sea, buuutt for weaving a story out of knowns and unknowns. There is enough there.

    I am looking into the first marriage of Davies.

    Miss Marple
    Hi Miss Marple,
    The 1871 Mary Davies you mention may not be the same as the one in the 1881 Census. In 1871 her husband David Davies was 43 and born in Llandaff, Glamorganshire, Wales. In 1881 the children seem to have adopted the name Davies but the father David has stopped time because he is only 46 when he should be 53. He is also listed as being born in Newport, different from the David of 1871. While Mary is showing the right age (40) and the right birth location, and the children's first names are the same, except they've lost the Chandler designation. Any thoughts on this?

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  • miss marple
    replied
    This is what I have got so far: Mary Davies age 40 was living at no 1 Homfray St in 1881. She is living with her husband David Davies age 46, a boiler maker and three children, Elizabeth age 19 [ married husband at sea] and grand daughter Martha age three months,Thomas age 14 and James age 12. Davies was not the father of the children, she married him in Cardiff in 1870. In the 71 census the children are described as stepchildren and Mary Davies first husband was Chandler.No1 is the house that was a brothel by 1883 and Davies living opposite. The whole of one side of the street had a reputation for brothels, even as late as the 1890s.

    At number 3 is another Davies, Thomas, a seaman age 23, unmarried living with his mother Harriet and sister.

    At number 19 is the 16 year old Mary Ann Kelly, daughter of John, a labourer.
    Yes I know she was born in Cardiff but her parents were born in Ireland. She has gone by the 91 census. So there are as many Kellys and Davies as fish in the sea, buuutt for weaving a story out of knowns and unknowns. There is enough there.

    I am looking into the first marriage of Davies.

    Miss Marple

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  • miss marple
    replied
    Davies, Kellys thousands of them but am researching Mary Davies

    Will keep you all posted if Mary Davies brothel keeper, yields anything interesting from the research.


    Miss Marple












    ifWill

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by miss marple View Post
    I have been looking at Brothels in Cardiff.The city seems to have been a hotbed of vice, drunkeness, disorderly conduct etc and a large Irish population. Bute St was quite notorious.

    I was going to list various brothels, but I am focussing on one in particular, which got me quite intrigued, another strange coincidence in the saga of Mary Kelly.
    One of the Census entries about Welsh Mary's was the family at 19 Homfrey St Cardiff.1881 Father John Kelly 55 gen labourer mother Margaret 57 both born Ireland. Helen daug 24, John 19 son and boarders. Mary Ann Kelly age 16 no occupation? is living with them.
    On December 8th 1883 Mary Davies, a woman, well known to the police was charged with keeping a house of ill fame at 1 Homfray St. She lived in a house opposite where she keep a close eye on the brothel. She was described by the police as a very acute woman. The whole one of one side of Homfrey st were brothels. Davies was sentenced to six months with hard labour.
    Coincidence or what? Is this part of the fabric by which MK weaves her backstory?

    Miss Marple
    Hi Miss Marple,

    This one was born in Cardiff, though. The family were at are at the same address in 1871, and Mary is again shown as being born in Cardiff, although her age is given as 4. The father is a coal ????. Also at no. 19 is a family named Flynn. The head, Timothy is employed at an iron works and two doors away is a family named McCarthy Coincidences? I would have thought so.

    In 1885 a woman named Mary Barnett was convicted of running a brothel in Davis Street, Cardiff.

    More coincidences than you can shake a stick at.

    Gary

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