Surgical expertise, anatomical knowledge. So on and so forth..

[Trevor Marriott]

Which suggests what, that the killer with Eddowes entered the square from either St James Passage or Mitre Street?
Is that a problem?



Lawende & Co. walked down to Aldgate, yet they did not mention seeing Harvey walking up, neither did Harvey claim to see these three men in Duke Street.
Is this consistent with your argument that there was no-one in Duke Street?
Perhaps not, right?

The 11 minute window you seek to prove sits nicely with your misguided belief that the killer had time to do all he is supposed to have done. Whereas with the times stated by the witnesses only opinion and the opinions of medical experts suggest that those times would not be sufficient.

May I suggest you revisit all the evidence relating to both sides of the arguments relating to the organ removal issue because I am sorry to keep telling you that the old accepted theory does not now stand up to close scrutiny.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jeff Leahy]

Lawende & Co. walked down to Aldgate, yet they did not mention seeing Harvey walking up, neither did Harvey claim to see these three men in Duke Street.
Is this consistent with your argument that there was no-one in Duke Street?
Perhaps not, right?

Yeah...but a watchman did see a couple leave Aldgate station..((St Bapholomous (Sorry about dyslexic spelling)) And a man return from Mitre Street on his own did he not?

and of course the 'Prime suspect' worked in a Hospital in Poland according to Simms..?

So it all adds up

Yours Jeff

[Bridewell]

Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
There are three details of significant importance, as highlited by Prosector (Surgeon), I summarize below:

1 - Where a section of colon was removed and the sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum.

Our surgeon explained that this is precisely what surgeons & pathologists do when they have to remove the descending colon. Which is done to stop faeces from oozing back into the abdominal cavity.

2 - The careful removal of a kidney, located at the rear of the body and enveloped within a fatty membrane is something that comes with experience.

Removing the descending colon in order to access this organ is not the kind of procedure that comes to someone who has no medical training.

3 - In any normal procedure for accessing the abdominal cavity by using a midline incision the normal practice is to skirt the cut around the umbilicus (belly button) but to the right.

This is standard practice for a surgeon when he is expected to sew up the patient after the operation or autopsy. The umbilicus is too tough to sew up so it is avoided and always to the right.
This is what we see done by the killer.

Conclusion, whoever killed and mutilated those women was no stranger to the medical profession.

Fascinating stuff, Jon. Thank-you.

[Bridewell]

Elmore I think your right, the murderer is someone who spent time with dead bodies, but then you look at where the murders took place...on the street, someone who feels comfortable on the street, comfortable enough to remove parts quickly in low light.

A ship's surgeon would be used to operating in poor light and difficult conditions. (Don't have anybody in mind - just a thought).

[Bridewell]

And you and all the others really believe that killer did all of this in 5 mins un-aided in total darkness in a blood filled abdomen.

You really do need reality checks !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why does it have to be five minutes? We both know that a witness can be certain and yet be mistaken. If Lawende's identification was of someone other than Eddowes, there would have been a lot more time than that, Trevor.

[Bridewell]

The only reason for this 5 minutes is Lawende's testimony, if he didn't see Kate, as I believe, then we are not limited to the 5 minutes (about 9 actually - from 1:35 to 1:44).
Lawende's suspect wasn't 'Jack' and the woman was not Kate - in my view. There's no need to make this crime more mysterious than it already is.

Sorry, Jon. Didn't see this before replying to Trevor's post myself. Lawende's identification of the woman as Eddowes based purely on her clothing is given much too much weight. I think it far more likely that the killer had considerably longer in which to do what he did. 1.15am to 1.35am would give him 20 minutes, which is more credible - especially if he knew Watkin's whereabouts at the time.

[Bridewell]

5 or 9 minutes is still not enough time for the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done, having regards for the issues previously mentioned coupled with medical experts corroborating this. You don't seem to reàlise that to locate and take hold of a kidney is a difficult task at the best of times because of where it sits at the back of the abdominal cavity and it sits in renal fact making it almost impossible to feel without ample lighting to see.it is also difficult to take hold of.
So put all these factors together points to the killer not being responsible for the removal of the organs from Eddowes

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, the 5 minute timing is your claim, not Jon's.

[Bridewell]

Which leaves us with Watkins.
Pure speculation: He did miss his 1:30 beat.
Reasons:
a) was drinking. He did it in the past, but for 12 years, he seemed to have corrected himself
b) overlooked Mitre Square.
c) was discussing Berner Street murder with colleagues.

Reasons for hiding this: fear of losing his job due to his former track record.

But like I said, pure speculation.

It's legitimate speculation though, to my mind, so here's some more:-

Eddowes left Bishopsgate PS at 1am. Arrived in Mitre Square around 1.10am.

There is an old saying in the trade: "A good policeman never gets wet."

Lawende, Levy and Harris left the Club around 1.30am when it stopped raining.

Watkin's beat took about 14 minutes per circuit. If he, too, left a dry spot (Kearley & Tonge being the most likely) when it stopped raining, he would return to Mitre Square around the time he said that he did.

On that basis, if Lawende's ID is mistaken, the killer has around half an hour. I'm also sceptical about placing precise parallels on timings between the estimate of a surgeon (who would be working carefully on a living patient) and a killer (who would be working, purely with speed in mind, on a corpse).

[Bridewell]

Hi Wick
I used to lean toward this also-also because of the time frame and the fact that lawende never saw the body.

However, since he is the only witness that has immediate corroboration with his two partners and mainly because of there suspect was wearing a peaked cap, same as the Berner street suspect(s)I lean toward lawende seeing the ripper and eddowes.

I suspect that a lot of men wore a peaked cap in the LVP. The men seen by Schwartz and Lawende may, or may not, have been the same individual.

[Bridewell]

Which suggests what, that the killer with Eddowes entered the square from either St James Passage or Mitre Street?
Is that a problem?

Not for me.

We don't know whether or not Eddowes entered the square with her killer but, given that she started out from Bishopsgate, I would place her likely access route to Mitre Square in the following order of likelihood:

(1) Mitre Street.
(2) Church Passage
(3) St James' Passage

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Bridewell,

I think it far more likely that the killer had considerably longer in which to do what he did. 1.15am to 1.35am would give him 20 minutes, which is more credible.

5 minutes or so isn't particularly incredible IMHO - indeed, it's surprising what can be done in that time. One certainly wouldn't need as much as 10 minutes to do what was done to Eddowes.

[Bridewell]

Hello Bridewell,
5 minutes or so isn't particularly incredible IMHO - indeed, it's surprising what can be done in that time. One certainly wouldn't need as much as 10 minutes to do what was done to Eddowes.

And the various doctors perhaps only thought in terms of what could be done with surgical instruments.

[Sam Flynn]

And the various doctors perhaps only thought in terms of what could be done with surgical instruments.

Possibly, although most seemed to conclude that the blade of the killer's knife was about 6 inches plus, which strikes me as rather unwieldy for surgery.

Considering what happened to Eddowes et al, a common knife was probably good enough to get the job done quickly, provided it was sufficiently sharp.

[Wickerman]

The 11 minute window you seek to prove sits nicely with your misguided belief that the killer had time to do all he is supposed to have done. Whereas with the times stated by the witnesses only opinion and the opinions of medical experts suggest that those times would not be sufficient.

May I suggest you revisit all the evidence relating to both sides of the arguments relating to the organ removal issue because I am sorry to keep telling you that the old accepted theory does not now stand up to close scrutiny.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, until your decidedly singular interpretation of the evidence becomes more mainstream, the "old accepted theory" will remain the most likely theory.
All the mutilations were done at the scene of the crime.

[Wickerman]

Sorry, Jon. Didn't see this before replying to Trevor's post myself. Lawende's identification of the woman as Eddowes based purely on her clothing is given much too much weight. I think it far more likely that the killer had considerably longer in which to do what he did. 1.15am to 1.35am would give him 20 minutes, which is more credible - especially if he knew Watkin's whereabouts at the time.

Hello Colin, welcome back

Yes, Lawende only mentioned the jacket and hat.
"She had a black jacket and a black bonnet I have seen the articles which it was stated belonged to her at the police station. My belief is that they were the same clothes which I had seen upon the Deceased "

Levy said he couldn't describe either the man or woman, and...
"..there was not sufficient light to enable me to distinguish the colour of the dress which the woman was wearing."

Not a very strong case, as also acknowledged by both McWilliams & Swanson.