The 120 year old trail is freezing

[Mike Covell]

Personally, I believe someone out there has the identity of JtR stuffed in their attic or basement. I think this case will be solved, but I don't know when and I don't know how. Don't you love the optimist?

I actually have Jack the Ripper in my attic!

[Cap'n Jack]

Personally I have every confidence that the case can be solved, and the identity of the Whitechapel Murderer proven beyond a shadow of doubt.
The most likely manner of this happening would be if a researcher was given full access to confidential patient files at Broadmoor Hospital, or, and, other similar institutions.
But just as easily I believe documentation will turn up in the ever-increasing electronic archives available to researchers today which will also solve the case.
I don't think it is in an attic, but an archive.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Personally I have every confidence that the case can be solved, and the identity of the Whitechapel Murderer proven beyond a shadow of doubt.
The most likely manner of this happening would be if a researcher was given full access to confidential patient files at Broadmoor Hospital, or, and, other similar institutions.
But just as easily I believe documentation will turn up in the ever-increasing electronic archives available to researchers today which will also solve the case.
I don't think it is in an attic, but an archive.

AP,

That's incredibly naive. I don't know what kind of 'file' you expect that to be. If you or anyone else found an inmate in any asylum that would fit Jack the Ripper it would still just be yours or anyone elses interpretation, not evidence. Even if you found a person in those files, who pushed all the right buttons and fitted nicely, it would still only be your opinion/theory and the suspect would still be scrutinised and doubted by others.
Martin Fido already did this once and it didn't work (as far as convincing everyone is concerned).
Exactly WHAT would that Broadmoor file - or any file for that matter - contain in order to be reckoned as evidence of anything 'beyond doubt'?

The thing that you and researchers who tries to identify Jack the Ripper don't seem to grasp, is that there is a huge difference between finding interesting material on one hand and evidence on the other. It is definitely not the same thing. What you or any researcher wholeheartedly believe is the key to the case doesn't necessarily mean that it is so strong that others can't find holes in it.
Evidence in a 120 year old murder case can't be found that is strong enough to convince everyone or declare the case finallly solved.

Any revelation of any suspect will be just another interesting story, nothing else, since there will really be no possible way in the world to PROVE that he was Jack the Ripper, no matter how promising the 'documentation' is or no matter how many times he is called 'Jack the Ripper' by different sources.
And this is just the crux with historical cases - there is no way to link the information to real evidence.

This is not opinion, just plain hard reality and common sense.
If you believe differently, you obviously have a lot to learn about historical research and what the word 'evidence' actually means.

Needless to say, the door will remain bolted and the key will remain lost.
But that doesn't make the case less intersting - far from it - since there are other, more relevant issues and questions to study and solve in connection with the case than the actual identity of the murderer.

All the best

[Mike Covell]

Or an Archive.....in an attic!!

[Robert]

Hi Glenn

I too have hopes that the case will one day be "solved" - though I think AP might be a bit optimistic to add "beyond a shadow of a doubt." It's true that nothing in this world is certain, and all statements are theoretically up for revision - including even "Several women were disembowelled in London in 1888." But I can imagine discoveries being made, whose tendency would be to strongly indicate one man in particular.

It isn't necessary that the rest of the Ripper community agree on his guilt - it's possible to know something while everyone else disagrees. One can say, however, that if after discussion the rest of the community feels unconvinced, that should give the discoverer pause and make him/her go through the evidence again, to guard against over-optimism.

Robert

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi there, Robert.

No, Robert, I don't agree with that view at all.
In order for a case to be finally solved, it is absolutely necessary that the evidence and the results manages to convince everyone, just like any case in the real world outside books.
If not, then it's just another theory and just another 'interesting suspect'.

To solve a case once and for all means that evidence has emerged that would be strong enough to hold up in court according to any judicial rules. And that kind of evidence simply is not possible to obtain in a 120 year old case, where no physical evidence, no live witnesses and no DNA is existing.
And since no such evidence ever will emerge, the case can't be solved either.

That is what differs histrocial cases and historical sources from modern ones. And of course the real problem with historical research.

All the best

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Sadly at the end of the day I don't actually believe that an envelope/bag/pouch/letter or whatever containing 'evidence' will be found in Auntie's attic in Lacock (Don't know why I chose Lacock but hey!)... or wherever-or an undisclosed lunatic with the right name will stand/stagger/lurch up(!)- or his/her grand children will-and confess to being JTR. !!!

Although I soooooooo want this to happen.......(has anyone got an Aunty with an undisclosed letter/loonie in their attic?)

This is what keeps us all going ...like the last clue on the Telegraph Cryptic or whatever- trouble is that with that we usually get that by Sunday afternoon!!! By the way 24 Down was Euro!!! (?)

Too many clues (badly written) and too many up and downs with bit's scribbled out...that's the Ripper case!!!

Hang in there....I say!! (sigh) AND---------- It's a great way to stick together after all!!!

Suzi xx

[Suzi]

Robert/AP-
I am ever the optimist and the glass is always half full (until some bugger comes and knocks it over!!) as far as I'm concerned!!
Now- IF someone's Aunty Maud- or whoever found irrefutable evidence...Gawd knows what that could be...but if it was 'Without a doubt' stuff what would we all do!!? --
Argue about it no doubt.. .The tantalising thing that I keep in my mind though is quite what THAT would be!!!!

We wait....................

Suzi xx

[Cap'n Jack]

Ah, ever the optimist, that's me.
I'm afraid I'm in complete agreement with Robert, for it is entirely possible that there is a full and detailed confession to the murders, made by a prisoner who had been sectioned by Her Majesty's Pleasure to an asylum, thereby making that confession privy to whatever institution took it, and perhaps under exceptional circumstances to a surviving and close relative of the prisoner.
Robert and I have investigated the possibilities of obtaining the medical records of certain individuals held at Broadmoor, or even Bedlam, and one is met by a massive blank wall of silence which cannot even be penetrated by the Home Office. It is possible to gain minor information on such prisoners, date of entry, date of death or release etc. but when it comes to actual medical records the situation appears to be without resolve.
Having said that though, I recently conducted an experiment on an individual I was sparingly interested in who had been confined to Bedlam in the LVP, and just because I was in touch with a direct relative of this individual we were able to obtain their full medical records without any problem.
I think Robert has worked very hard to make this happen with certain prisoners who were confined in Broadmoor in the LVP, but without the direct help of a very near relative, it ain't going to happen.
Helped by the paperless archives that are thundering onto the WWW on a daily basis I believe we are poised on the brink of great discovery; and to claim otherwise smacks of a 'flat earth' syndrome.
Great cogs are turning, get on 'em, or get ground down.

[Trevor Marriott]

I have to disagree with the posters who suggest there would have to be irrefutable evidence for people to be convinced.

Nowadays many people get charged with offences where the prosecution case is very weak and still get convicted.

Persons have also been convicted of murder where the prosecution case is based on nothing more than circumstancial.

I think people have to look at the facts surrounding whatever theory of the ripper they choose to go with an assess evaluate and come to a sensible judgement.

Those who want irrefutable evidence are the ones who do not want the mystery solved.

"The truth is out there "

[Suzi]

Hi AP
That wall of silence is terrifying even today but to work your way through the LVP wall is something else indeed!

Let's face it -girls who had the indecency to become pregnant were banged up in asylums as insane!!! (Not that long ago!!!)
.. Maybe confessing to bumping off the odd 'unfortunate' worked the same way!!!
Hmmmmmmmmmm I agree the chap 'banged up' whoever he was would make some sort of sense for the 'STOP' - if that's what it was!

Records records records............ what a pain...........could drive you mad!!!

Good Luck tho'!!

Suzi x

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I have to disagree with the posters who suggest there would have to be irrefutable evidence for people to be convinced.

Nowadays many people get charged with offences where the prosecution case is very weak and still get convicted.

Persons have also been convicted of murder where the prosecution case is based on nothing more than circumstancial.

I think people have to look at the facts surrounding whatever theory of the ripper they choose to go with an assess evaluate and come to a sensible judgement.

Those who want irrefutable evidence are the ones who do not want the mystery solved.

"The truth is out there "

Trevor,

With all due respect but that was probably some of the worst bollocks I have ever read. Do you actually know anything about historical research and what is required in terms of evidence?

Yes, persons have been convicted on circumstancial evidence but that is because there has been so much overwhelming evidence - including of forensic nature - that they together have become the base of a guilty verdict.
No suspect has even been convicted on the grounds of a simple document here and there or a confession alone, or under circumstances where a crime scene or items from a victim is no longer existing.

LISTEN, Trevor - for heaven's sake - if you DON'T have irresputable evidence, then anyone can shoot a hole and sink any suspect down the drain. You can't OFFICIALLY claim to have solved the case, if you can't produce enough evidence that makes everyone agree on that solution. And THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE in a 120 year old case where no crime scene evidence or forensic evidence still exists. Any document can be disputed or disproven.

Jesus Christ. What a f*cking laugh. And these people call themselves researchers?

All the best

[Robert]

Hi Glenn

I can imagine physical evidence - in the form of letters, asylum records, newspaper reports among other things - that might provide reasonable certainty - but it's more difficult to meet judicial standards (that's why I was dubious about the "shadow of a doubt").

To give an example : suppose that instead of their maddeningly vague and contradictory accounts, Anderson and Swanson had given clear and precise accounts which agreed with each other in every particular. Suppose also that someone discovers a newspaper report of Aaron attacking a woman pre-1888, in London or even in Poland. Suppose too that Aaron's asylum records had indicated that he spoke of being Jack the Ripper and that he was constantly talking about the murders. Of course, it didn't happen like that - but there's no earthly reason why it couldn't have happened like that. That would be fairly strong evidence.

In court, of course, a defence counsel would point out the failure of the witness to identify Kosminski. He'd probably suggest that Swanson was just repeating Anderson, or vice versa, so as to halve the weight of the testimony, and he'd probably suggest that Anderson tried to "fit up" a mentally ill man by planting in his mind the idea that he was Jack the Ripper.

Robert

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Ah, ever the optimist, that's me.
I'm afraid I'm in complete agreement with Robert, for it is entirely possible that there is a full and detailed confession to the murders, made by a prisoner who had been sectioned by Her Majesty's Pleasure to an asylum, thereby making that confession privy to whatever institution took it, and perhaps under exceptional circumstances to a surviving and close relative of the prisoner.
Robert and I have investigated the possibilities of obtaining the medical records of certain individuals held at Broadmoor, or even Bedlam, and one is met by a massive blank wall of silence which cannot even be penetrated by the Home Office. It is possible to gain minor information on such prisoners, date of entry, date of death or release etc. but when it comes to actual medical records the situation appears to be without resolve.
Having said that though, I recently conducted an experiment on an individual I was sparingly interested in who had been confined to Bedlam in the LVP, and just because I was in touch with a direct relative of this individual we were able to obtain their full medical records without any problem.
I think Robert has worked very hard to make this happen with certain prisoners who were confined in Broadmoor in the LVP, but without the direct help of a very near relative, it ain't going to happen.
Helped by the paperless archives that are thundering onto the WWW on a daily basis I believe we are poised on the brink of great discovery; and to claim otherwise smacks of a 'flat earth' syndrome.
Great cogs are turning, get on 'em, or get ground down.

AP,

I respect every effort being made and certainly appreciate the hard work.

But you know as well as I do, that a confession is worth sh*t.

All the best

[Robert]

AP, don't worry, I haven't properly started on Broadmoor yet.