The Whitehall Mystery

[Pcdunn]

Thanks that's a good start pc...what about packing case maker? I've never understood what exactly that means. I wonder what factory's were in the immediate vicinity of the torso?

Packing case makers likely needed carpentry skills, as large items were shipped in boxes, crates, cases made of wood. And wooden barrels for the beer, as well as some foodstuffs.

Think hammers, nails, saws, for this occupation's tools of the trade.

[Debra A]

oh wow that's an interesting theory about the factory

I mis-remembered, Rocky.
I had asked whether the elbows and finger damage could be caused by some sort of repetitive work at a table and Jon mentioned Frances Coles had damaged her finger working at a bottle stopping factory in the Minories:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=343100&postcount=112

[Debra A]

Hi Debra
Have you ever thought about writing a book about the torsos?

Many times, Abby. Thinking about it is the easy bit.

[RockySullivan]

Reading Jerry's post at jtr I was pretty impressed by the possible connection between Le grand of the strand and 2 harvey. I feel like a common address will be what cracks the case. Brodie's statement of one of the killers really struck me as odd and significant in light of your discovery

[RockySullivan]

I've seen a list of tenants from MKs busing on here...would it be possible to find records of 2 harvey in 1888. I wonder if someone lived there who worked at whitehall or if some type of boards of works contracted worker lived there. I guess that information wouldn't be available. It does seem too coincidental to me that arnold and brodie both lived there...one having knowledge of a torso and another confessing. The way brodie confessed... Saying 9 and they never bothered me til now...it seems very strange. Did brodie know Mackenzie? What about the men who robbed Sadler?

[RockySullivan]

It quite interesting that brodie also was released from prison on the 23rd (or 22nd) the day before the 24th of august paper found at whitehall

[Debra A]

I've seen a list of tenants from MKs busing on here...would it be possible to find records of 2 harvey in 1888. I wonder if someone lived there who worked at whitehall or if some type of boards of works contracted worker lived there. I guess that information wouldn't be available. It does seem too coincidental to me that arnold and brodie both lived there...one having knowledge of a torso and another confessing. The way brodie confessed... Saying 9 and they never bothered me til now...it seems very strange. Did brodie know Mackenzie? What about the men who robbed Sadler?

2 Harvey's buildings was a large lodging house accommodating 35+ male lodgers in 1891. In the electoral roles for 1888 only the lodging house keeper, George Salvage, is listed as eligible to vote.

[Abby Normal]

Many times, Abby. Thinking about it is the easy bit.

Haha.yes it is. But I for one would buy it in a second!

I think you should go for it.

Has there even been a (good) book on the torso killings?

[jerryd]

Reading Jerry's post at jtr I was pretty impressed by the possible connection between Le grand of the strand and 2 harvey. I feel like a common address will be what cracks the case. Brodie's statement of one of the killers really struck me as odd and significant in light of your discovery

Hi Rocky, thanks.

The address is too much of a coincidence for me, too.

Take a look at a couple of witness decriptions in 3 different murders.

Schwartz (Stride)- 5 feet, 5 inches tall, aged around 30 yrs old with dark hair, a fair complexion, a small brown moustache.

Lawende(Eddowes)- 30 years old, 5 feet 7 or 8 inches tall and of medium build, with a fair complexion and mustache. He wore a pepper-and-salt loose jacket, a gray cloth cap with a peak, and a reddish neckerchief tied in a knot.

Mary Anne Cox(Kelly)- 5 feet, 5 inches, 36 years old, side whiskers, fresh complexion, blotchy face. Shabbily dressed with dark over coat and black felt billycock hat.

Here's John Arnold:

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt.

The dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck sounds a lot like Lawende's description.

[Trevor Marriott]

Haha.yes it is. But I for one would buy it in a second!

I think you should go for it.

Has there even been a (good) book on the torso killings?

Did you not mean The Torso Mysteries? Killings suggests murder, and that cannot be proven in most of those torso victims.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

Did you not mean The Torso Mysteries? Killings suggests murder, and that cannot be proven in most of those torso victims.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Did you mean most or all? The pinchin torso's cause of death was from blood loss due to the throat being slit from what I read.

[jerryd]

Did you not mean The Torso Mysteries? Killings suggests murder, and that cannot be proven in most of those torso victims.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,

I agree that in most of the torso cases the authorities skirt around saying these were murders. However, they practically say it was murder without committing to the fact in the Whitehall case.

London St James Gazette An Evening Review And Record Of News
October 23, 1888

[Rosella]

I have written a lot from childhood and most of it has been on a fairly low desk. I sit and think and write with my elbows resting on the desk. As a result my elbows are very discoloured and a small fleshy pad has developed over decades on the middle finger of my writing hand.

Could the unknown victim with similar elbows have been a writer, perhaps? Hundreds of anonymous people submitted short stories to the multitude of magazines in the 19th century. She could also have written chapbooks, though they were going out of fashion by the 1880's and were mostly written by working class people.

I'm thinking maybe a single lower middleclass woman without family came to London, took a room and tried to earn her living by writing. That would explain why she wasn't used to manual labour. She then met Torso killer and was credulous enough to go back to his quarters with him.