The Whitehall Mystery

[Pcdunn]

If the infant was newborn, she is not a fetus any longer. An exception might be if she was stillborn, having never drawn a breath. In either case, sadly, it was probably too common an occurance to draw much notice.

[RockySullivan]

If the infant was newborn, she is not a fetus any longer. An exception might be if she was stillborn, having never drawn a breath. In either case, sadly, it was probably too common an occurance to draw much notice.

I have to check back about whether the second fetus has been born or not. It was older than the one in the pickle jar. Still two fetuses found packaged up..one in a pickle jar and one wrapped up found in the thames within a very short time frame of a pregnant woman's dismembered remains. I'd hardly call that common

[Debra A]

maybe you are thinking of the whitehall torso? I think the pinching torso was unique in that it was chopped below the knee. Another fact from forgotten victims....One of the Drs. described one of the torso's as being possibly covered in a preservative that kept it from decomposing as quickly and hid the smell. I am thinking this was the Jackson torso...but since it was in water Idk. Anyone clear on this? The whitehall torso was badly decomposed and yet no smell was noticed...I find this very strange..and wonder if there was some chemical that could prevent a smell? I think the use of preservative and bleach powder could point in the direction of the killer. How many would be knowledgable about this stuff? I am surprised no one has commented about the second fetus...

Hi Rocky

The Pinchin St torso was definitely dismembered at the thighs. The removal of the the thighs with sweeping cuts while the arms were down the sides of the body is what caused the cuts to the wrists; collateral damage.
Also, the elbows were discoloured, not the knees. Doctors concluded a mark around the waist was the kind that would be caused by a garment tied there, petticoat, skirt or drawers, something like that.

A good reliable source for information on the Pinchin St torso would be the article written by Rob Clack for Ripperologist magazine.

The foetus in the pickle jar was of 5 months gestation and seems to have been ruled out as being connected to Elizabeth Jackson's case (she was said to be further along in pregnancy) and the newborn infant girl was too old to have been her delivered child. I mention both in my 2008 dissertation here on casebook

http://www.casebook.org/victims/jackson.html

[Debra A]

Sadly, the bodies of newly born infants regularly turned up dead in the Thames or dismembered and dumped and babies were abandoned on a regular basis.

[RockySullivan]

Wow I'm totally off aren't I. Thanks for the correction. How low was the dismember on the thighs. I always thought the pinchin torso still had the thighs attached. Begg claims the police were unable to determine if the newborn was connected to Jackson. How close in time were the two babies found? Do you think the conclusion of the newborn as too old could've been wrong...considering the way it was dumped?

[RockySullivan]

Also there was piece of bloody clothing (?) found near the pinchin site or a few streets away? It's interesting how the police believed the murder was carried out close by

[Debra A]

Wow I'm totally off aren't I. Thanks for the correction. How low was the dismember on the thighs. I always thought the pinchin torso still had the thighs attached. Begg claims the police were unable to determine if the newborn was connected to Jackson. How close in time were the two babies found? Do you think the conclusion of the newborn as too old could've been wrong...considering the way it was dumped?

The division was at the thigh joints.
A foetus and a baby are two different things, Rocky.
They may have been able to rule out the foetus in the pickle jar in a number of ways but no details are given. The female child was presumably full term and would be very different in size and plumpness to a child born prematurely at 7 months gestation.
Something happened to EJ's unborn child, removed from her uterus after her death. It's very likely it was disposed of in the Thames, also.

[RockySullivan]

Thanks for the correction I am really stupid. Was one of the early torsos cut below the knees? Do you think the pinchin victim was kept tied up with her elbows on the ground for a time before her murder?

[Debra A]

Was one of the early torsos cut below the knees? Do you think the pinchin victim was kept tied up with her elbows on the ground for a time before her murder?

As far as I remember all the other cases had division at the hip and then the leg was taken off at the knee, also.

No, I don't think there's any evidence for that, Rocky!
Sorry to be so boring but I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wondered if the mark on the finger and discoloured elbows were caused by some sort of repetitive work at a table top and Jon Simons commented that there was some sort of box (? ) factory in the area and Frances Coles had worked there.
The mark around the waist was probably caused by clothing as the doctors suggested and not rope and the slashes to the wrist were said to be caused when the hip joints were cut around with a knife with the arms laid down the sides of the body, accidentally being injured, also.

[Abby Normal]

As far as I remember all the other cases had division at the hip and then the leg was taken off at the knee, also.

No, I don't think there's any evidence for that, Rocky!
Sorry to be so boring but I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wondered if the mark on the finger and discoloured elbows were caused by some sort of repetitive work at a table top and Jon Simons commented that there was some sort of box (? ) factory in the area and Frances Coles had worked there.
The mark around the waist was probably caused by clothing as the doctors suggested and not rope and the slashes to the wrist were said to be caused when the hip joints were cut around with a knife with the arms laid down the sides of the body, accidentally being injured, also.

Hi Debra
Have you ever thought about writing a book about the torsos?

[RockySullivan]

As far as I remember all the other cases had division at the hip and then the leg was taken off at the knee, also.

No, I don't think there's any evidence for that, Rocky!
Sorry to be so boring but I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wondered if the mark on the finger and discoloured elbows were caused by some sort of repetitive work at a table top and Jon Simons commented that there was some sort of box (? ) factory in the area and Frances Coles had worked there.
The mark around the waist was probably caused by clothing as the doctors suggested and not rope and the slashes to the wrist were said to be caused when the hip joints were cut around with a knife with the arms laid down the sides of the body, accidentally being injured, also.

oh wow that's an interesting theory about the factory

[RockySullivan]

Deb I did a little reading and saw this on the pinchin page;
:The abdominal region of the body was heavily mutilated, and it was reported that the handiwork was eerily reminiscent of the Ripper's work; at least one account states that the womb was missing. The identity of the woman was a mystery, as the only clues were the facts that her arms and hands were "well formed and showed no signs of manual labour." Still, the police came to the conclusion she was a factory worker.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/pinchin.html

Was it the elbows that led to this conclusion or something more. Interesting that she may not have been a prostitute as is usually suggested with the torsos. I wonder how close this box factory was? I cannot get over the sweeping governor man. He is a huge red flag to me. Possibly a worker from a nearby factory...possibly the killer or both. He's the onlyan seen in the vicinity of the site that wasn't sleeping I believe. The torso were frequently described as expertly packaged or tied up. What profession would be an expert at packaging thing up and tying so tightly and securely with strings, rope, chords etc.

[Pcdunn]

Was it the elbows that led to this conclusion or something more. Interesting that she may not have been a prostitute as is usually suggested with the torsos. I wonder how close this box factory was? I cannot get over the sweeping governor man. He is a huge red flag to me. Possibly a worker from a nearby factory...possibly the killer or both. He's the onlyan seen in the vicinity of the site that wasn't sleeping I believe. The torso were frequently described as expertly packaged or tied up. What profession would be an expert at packaging thing up and tying so tightly and securely with strings, rope, chords etc.

What professions? In the LVP? Let me think...

Sailors-- knots and ropes on a sail or fishing net.
Hostlers/grooms/stable-boys-- tying up horses so they don't wander off.
Butchers-- tying up packages of meat in paper for delivery.
Shopkeepers in general-- packages tied with string for delivery.

Probably a few more, but these come to my mind first.

[RockySullivan]

Thanks that's a good start pc...what about packing case maker? I've never understood what exactly that means. I wonder what factory's were in the immediate vicinity of the torso?

[jerryd]

What profession would be an expert at packaging thing up and tying so tightly and securely with strings, rope, chords etc.