The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

Has anyone consider a connection between the pinchin John Leary (Cleary/Arnold) and the John Leary that was picked out by constable barrett in the Tabram murder investigation? Seems a strange coincidence

[Trevor Marriott]

Has anyone consider a connection between the pinchin John Leary (Cleary/Arnold) and the John Leary that was picked out by constable barrett in the Tabram murder investigation? Seems a strange coincidence

Coincidences don't solve crimes !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

John Leary was Mr. Blotchy.

[RockySullivan]

Coincidences don't solve crimes !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You can lead a pig to water but you can't make him drink!

From Arnold cb page:

Finally, it seemed, the mystery was solved. On 13 September, a newsvendor named John Arnold gave himself up to police at Whitehall place, after having read about the Cleary incident in the New York Herald (the paper he sold for a living). Arnold was a resident of No. 2 Harveys Buildings, Strand. He admitted that on Saturday, the evening of 7 September, he had been drinking at the King Lud public house. Soon after he left the pub he was approached near Fleet Street by "a man dressed as a soldier". This man told him, "Hurry up with your papers, another horrible murder ... in Backchurch Lane." Arnold said he immediately ran up to the offices of the New York Herald to report the information, but that he did not wish to follow the reporters to the scene of the crime because it was past 1am and his lodgings would soon close for the night.

According to Arnold, he gave the reporters the name 'John Kemp' (not Cleary), and the address 21 Whitehorse Yard, where he had lived previously. The false name was given, he said, because he did not want his wife to know where he was staying.

Arnold described the soldier he met:

... a man dressed as a soldier, in black uniform, black cord shoulder strap, lightish buttons, cheese cutter cap, brass ornament in front of cap like a horn. Cannot say whether there was a band round or not, age about 35 to 36. Height 5ft. 6 or 7. compl. fair. Fair moustache, good looking, carrying a brown paper parcel about 6 or 8 inches long... I cannot say if he belonged to the regulars or volunteers... If I talked to the soldier for ten minutes or so, I might recognise his voice, but I am not certain that I could identify him from a number of persons.
Swanson remarked that this description most closely ressembled that of a "Commissionaire".

Apparently, John Arnold had been known to the police in the district, as he had a reputation for drinking and gambling. He had also deserted his wife and received 21 days imprisonment as a result. Still, Swanson remarked, "I have never heard of him being dishonest. That he could be in any way connected with others or by himself in a murder is to me improbable." He also thought it might be useful to set up an trial with the Commissionaires, to see if Arnold could confirm that this was indeed the type of uniform his "soldier" had been wearing. No reports follow to indicate whether or not this trial did indeed take place.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/john-arnold.html

John Leary

Police Constable Thomas Barrett was on routine patrol duty in George Yard on the night Martha Tabram was murdered, 7 August 1888, when at 2am he saw and spoke to a soldier. The Constable asked the soldier why he was loitering around, to which the soldier replied, that he was waiting for his mate who had gone with a girl. As Martha Tabram was estimated to have been murdered at about 2.30am the identification of the soldier became vitally important. An identification parade was held and Constable Barrett was told to be careful as to his actions as many eyes were watching him, and a great deal depended on him picking out the right man, and no other. Barrett walked along the line and picked out a soldier, who gave his name as John Leary. The soldier was able to provide the police with a satisfactory account of his movements on the night of the murder. It transpired that he had been in the company of Private Law, who corroborated Leary's statement. Constable Barrett described the soldier he saw that night as 22 to 26 years of age, about 5ft 9"tall, with dark hair and a small brown moustache turned up at the ends.

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/113.html

[jerryd]

Has anyone consider a connection between the pinchin John Leary (Cleary/Arnold) and the John Leary that was picked out by constable barrett in the Tabram murder investigation? Seems a strange coincidence

I have considered it, Rocky. There are some problems with it being the same man though.

First off, John Arnold is a separate individual altogether from Leary or Cleary. Arnold is the man that walked in to the Herald office and reported the body. He used the alias of John Cleary (he claims he told them John Kemp) and did so to supposedly keep his wife from finding out where he was. He had been imprisoned short term for wife desertion. Somewhere on these boards is mention of the actual copy of the signature when he gave his statement to the Herald. The signature was John Cleary, not Kemp.

The name John Cleary surfaced when Claude Mellor (man who found Elizabeth Jackson's thigh at Shelley estate) reported to the police he thought the man Cleary to be an ex-compositor that worked for The Globe. The description Mellor gave of this man is completely different than that of John Arnold. This John Cleary was a man Mellor was acquainted with and for some reason Mellor equated a body in Back Church Lane with this guy. I am still searching for this John Cleary but have not found him yet.

John Leary is an alias of Dennis Lynch. Donald Swanson stated in conversation that Dennis Lynch was known in White Horse Yard as John Leary. Dennis Lynch worked doing odd jobs for a Mr. and Mrs. Matley, greengrocers in the Drury Lane area. He drove a cart and pony around town doing odd jobs for them. 21 White Horse Yard (which is off Drury Lane), was the previous address of Dennis Lynch,according to Mrs. Matley. By 1889 Lynch had worked for the Matley's for 10 years. When Donald Swanson and a criminal investigator named Partridge, questioned Lynch, Swanson stated some of the confusion may have come from mistaking the initial flourish of the "L" in Leary and made it appear to be a "C" and thus the name Cleary. Swanson appears to have been referring to the signature of John Arnold at the Herald office. After further questioning of Lynch they knew he was not the man they were looking for and the hunt for John Arnold continued.

The best candidate for John Arnold was living at 4, Whitehorse Yard in the 1881 census with wife, Amelie, and two children. He was born in 1861 Holborn, Middlesex. That puts him at the right age for the description of our John Arnold who was around 28 yrs in 1889. It is not a coincidence that John Arnold used the name of John Leary in my opinion. Both men lived at White Horse Yard, worked in St Clement Danes and both men used the alias of John Leary. They are two separate men that knew each other(my opinion again). In the search for John Arnold, the police received two separate accounts regarding a man named Cleary. One was Mellors man and the other was actually named Lynch going by the alias of John Leary. They happened upon Lynch by going to the address John Arnold gave at the Herald office, 21 Whitehorse Yard as being his own residence. What a lucky guess, Mr. Arnold. That just happens to be the prior address of a man going by the alias of John Leary. It's more than a coincidence.

My conclusion is John Leary and the soldier are not the same man and that John Arnold and Dennis Lynch knew each other. I think the soldier was made up by John Arnold.

[RockySullivan]

I have considered it, Rocky. There are some problems with it being the same man though.

First off, John Arnold is a separate individual altogether from Leary or Cleary. Arnold is the man that walked in to the Herald office and reported the body. He used the alias of John Cleary (he claims he told them John Kemp) and did so to supposedly keep his wife from finding out where he was. He had been imprisoned short term for wife desertion. Somewhere on these boards is mention of the actual copy of the signature when he gave his statement to the Herald. The signature was John Cleary, not Kemp.

The name John Cleary surfaced when Claude Mellor (man who found Elizabeth Jackson's thigh at Shelley estate) reported to the police he thought the man Cleary to be an ex-compositor that worked for The Globe. The description Mellor gave of this man is completely different than that of John Arnold. This John Cleary was a man Mellor was acquainted with and for some reason Mellor equated a body in Back Church Lane with this guy. I am still searching for this John Cleary but have not found him yet.

John Leary is an alias of Dennis Lynch. Donald Swanson stated in conversation that Dennis Lynch was known in White Horse Yard as John Leary. Dennis Lynch worked doing odd jobs for a Mr. and Mrs. Matley, greengrocers in the Drury Lane area. He drove a cart and pony around town doing odd jobs for them. 21 White Horse Yard (which is off Drury Lane), was the previous address of Dennis Lynch,according to Mrs. Matley. By 1889 Lynch had worked for the Matley's for 10 years. When Donald Swanson and a criminal investigator named Partridge, questioned Lynch, Swanson stated some of the confusion may have come from mistaking the initial flourish of the "L" in Leary and made it appear to be a "C" and thus the name Cleary. Swanson appears to have been referring to the signature of John Arnold at the Herald office. After further questioning of Lynch they knew he was not the man they were looking for and the hunt for John Arnold continued.

The best candidate for John Arnold was living at 4, Whitehorse Yard in the 1881 census with wife, Amelie, and two children. He was born in 1861 Holborn, Middlesex. That puts him at the right age for the description of our John Arnold who was around 28 yrs in 1889. It is not a coincidence that John Arnold used the name of John Leary in my opinion. Both men lived at White Horse Yard, worked in St Clement Danes and both men used the alias of John Leary. They are two separate men that knew each other(my opinion again). In the search for John Arnold, the police received two separate accounts regarding a man named Cleary. One was Mellors man and the other was actually named Lynch going by the alias of John Leary. They happened upon Lynch by going to the address John Arnold gave at the Herald office, 21 Whitehorse Yard as being his own residence. What a lucky guess, Mr. Arnold. That just happens to be the prior address of a man going by the alias of John Leary. It's more than a coincidence.

My conclusion is John Leary and the soldier are not the same man and that John Arnold and Dennis Lynch knew each other. I think the soldier was made up by John Arnold.

Interesting...I was thinking of a possible reason for the alias Leary being used was that John Arnold was that he knew the Soldier John Leary. Perhaps the man was known to Lynch? It's strange that the graffiti is described as saying "John Cleary is a fool" since the name was Leary or was this where the L was mistaken for a CL?

[RockySullivan]

it almost seems from Arnold giving that name and the John Cleary is a fool graffiti that an attempt was being made to frame a "John Leary" or "John Cleary" for the murder

[jerryd]

Rocky,

I don't know if you've read the R. Harding Davis story and his visit to the Ripper crime scenes with Inspector Henry Moore in late August 1889. I'll quote a piece of it as I find it interesting and relevant to what we are talking about.

'It had been a five hours' walk through more misery, vice and crime than can perhaps be found in as small a space, less than a square mile in any other great city. There had been only eight murders then. And as we neared the station I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station. I don't know whether Jack the Ripper was lurking near us that night and had acted on the inspector's suggestion, or whether the inspector is Jack the Ripper himself, but the coincidence is certainly suspicious. As for myself, although I assented to its being a good place for murder at the time, I can prove an alibi by the ship's captain.'

John Arnold announcing a murder two days before it occurred and Inspector Moore pinpointing the crime scene a few weeks prior to finding a torso in those very arches is high up on my list on coincidences.

[jerryd]

I've often wondered if John Arnold overheard Inspector Moore relating his story of his visit with R. Harding Davis to someone on the streets and ran to make a story out of it. He did initially say he heard it from an Inspector who he bumped into on Whitechapel High Street. Then, two days later, somebody fulfilled the prophecy and deposited a torso in that very location.

[RockySullivan]

I've often wondered if John Arnold overheard Inspector Moore relating his story of his visit with R. Harding Davis to someone on the streets and ran to make a story out of it. He did initially say he heard it from an Inspector who he bumped into on Whitechapel High Street. Then, two days later, somebody fulfilled the prophecy and deposited a torso in that very location.

Also the possibility that someone he reported to at the paper fulfilled the prophecy. Thank you for that it's really strange how Davis outright accuses Moore. What about Davis himself? The spot was two blocks from the station? There is something really strange about the Pinchin case and I think it has the biggest clues. There must be something to the John Cleary is a fool graffiti. And the man who Arnold reported to also found the arm on the embankment? That seems to suspicious in my opinion.

[RockySullivan]

John Leary was Mr. Blotchy.

You know Arnold was said to have a red boil on his face

[jerryd]

Guzzling Jim

London Evening News And Post September 14, 1889

[jerryd]

John Leary was Mr. Blotchy.

London Evening News And Post September 21, 1889

[RockySullivan]

London Evening News And Post September 21, 1889

Dodger and Guzzling Jim, eh? Those old bastards! Nice finds Jerry. I couldn't find anything on Guzzling Jim other than a mention in a jtr thread with a post about forbes winslow. Have you found anything on him or this dodger? It's strange they say the man suspected of being the ripper was receiving letters and postcards from Dodger?

Possible connection? sounds like an interesting book:
"Natalie, I acknowledge the excellent quality of much of the work in the casebook and this has assisted no end in my own studies as an "armchair" historian for this area of personal interest. I also empathise with your affinity for the East End, as I am a "Norf" Londoner but of cockney descent since at least 1837. (My Great Uncle, "Dodger" Mullins, although long dead now, was in fact introduced to the Kray twins by their father as "The Old Guv'nor of the East End. He is also mentioned in Raphael Samuel's "East End Underworld", but I'm afraid that as we also encounter so often with JTR witnesses,I suspect that Arthur Harding was telling a few "porkies". Interesting whether Harding's reference to John "McCarty" of Dorset Street fame as a "bully and a tough guy" has any merit). I also note with interest the information that Professor Fishman still gives talks at the Cloak & Dagger Club.
"

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/16648.html

[Harry D]

You know Arnold was said to have a red boil on his face

Yes, although it was said that it looked like a boil that was healing. It could've been a skin condition. He fits the rest of Mr. Blotchy's description.