The Whitehall Mystery

[Debra A]

Jerry, great research, How late did the trains run? i missed that about fairclough. I still think theres something suspicious about her boyfriend though, the black eyes, its just strange. I wonder if debs has looked into his background much?

I have looked at him, Rocky.
He was a millstone grinder from March Cambridgeshire, he was from a family of millers and bakers.

He was in the Cambs. Militia reserves and then joined the Grenadier Guards in the 70's. He almost immediately deserted and returned and was imprisoned. He was placed back in the guards and after a year deserted again. This time he hid from authorities for almost 7 years in Lancashire (and gained the nickname Lancashire Jack) He was imprisoned again on his return in the 80s and finally released in April 1887.

He was discharged from the army on medical grounds because he had been almost deaf from childhood and had perforated eardrums in both ears which was aggravated by sleeping under canvas on manoeuvres and had hindered his ability to correctly follow orders.

His army record notes that he had a 'primary sore' on his penis (syphilis)

His workmates believed that although he claimed he couldn't read and write (he also told police this was why he hadn't seen the news about the Thames finds), they felt he could and he was faking it. He does appear to have signed his army records himself.

I noticed he had a brother living in Lafone Street in 1890 (not certain he was there in 1889), close to George's Stairs where some of Elizabeth's remains were first found.

[jerryd]

Hi Rocky, when I said the killer appeared to have a decent turn around time I was referring to the time between killing and dumping. The Whitehall torso appeared to have been there awhile based on the arm being covered in the dirt and the workers appear to have just missed the torso. I should have made my statement more clear however.


Jerry, this research in great. I saw your post in a thread on the other forum and even if that vein of reasoning was slightly off with the metro, I still thought it had great potential when you compare the railway lines to where victims were found.

Have you been able to find any maps of the railway system? I have looked but what I have found is confusing for a person not familiar with Lodon.

Hi Dane, thanks,

I have used several different sources for the railway maps. Currently I use an 1878 map of London that shows the stations in red. Then I check, now (lol), to see the dates of operation. The link to this map is below. After clicking the section of town you're interested in, click again to zoom on that portion. I will also provide a link to another map that shows the rail lines so you have an overview of the system.

http://london1878.com/ (1878 map)

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3684 (post #10 has map)

As far as not being familiar with London, I live in Las Vegas. I'm not at all familiar with London other than looking at maps and figuring stuff out. I feel like I could walk from the east end of London to the west end and not get lost after all the map browsing I've done. It's been quite interesting learning where all the streets are, what different names they were called over time and how many different Dorset Streets, Paternoster Rows, Commercial Roads, etc there are around the City.

[jerryd]

Debs,

That's interesting about Faircloth. Do you think he is a viable suspect for Jackson?

Rocky,

I want to say the trains stopped at 12:30 a.m, but I read that somewhere. And, I'm not sure if that refers only to the underground rail (Met. District Line). I have been trying to find an old train schedule, to no avail.

[Pcdunn]

Fascinating thread. Reading the detailed descriptions of the differences and/or similarities between the Torso Murders and the Ripper victims, I could not help thinking that "Torsoman" reminds me of H.H. Holmes's approach to totally obliterating his victims much more than the Ripper's more devil-may-care, leave- 'em-where-they-lie method.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've got a reasonable 1888 map of the East End, but unfortunately it's on paper so I can't post it here. But it does show the railways and stations nicely.
For the record, Whitechapel is almost entirely encircled by a ring of over-ground railway lines about a mile across, mostly raised up on brick arches (such as at Pinchin Street). The only gap in the ring has an underground line instead. There's also an underground line running diagonally across the circle, beneath Whitechapel High Street/Road. With the various spurs and indentations, I don't think anywhere in Whitechapel is more than 500 yards from one station or another.

[Dane_F]

I've got a reasonable 1888 map of the East End, but unfortunately it's on paper so I can't post it here. But it does show the railways and stations nicely.
For the record, Whitechapel is almost entirely encircled by a ring of over-ground railway lines about a mile across, mostly raised up on brick arches (such as at Pinchin Street). The only gap in the ring has an underground line instead. There's also an underground line running diagonally across the circle, beneath Whitechapel High Street/Road. With the various spurs and indentations, I don't think anywhere in Whitechapel is more than 500 yards from one station or another.

Hi Joshua,

Do you have the ability to take pictures of the whitechapel area and post those pictures? I'm sure everyone here would be very interested in an 1888 map that shows the railways and stations.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Dane_F,
When I said an 1888 Whitechapel map, I actually meant a map of 1888 Whitechapel (it would be lovely to have an actual map from the LVP).
It's a modern printout, 'derived' from GW Bacon's Atlas of London and Suburbs. When I searched online for this it looks like it was published in 1880, so not 100% convinced it is totally accurate for 1888.
It's actually a commercially available 'ripper' map - I bought it on Amazon - so I'm not sure of the legality of posting a pic here....

[Joshua Rogan]

Hey, I've just checked the Amazon link, and there's actually a picture of it on there, and higher res than my phone can manage too...

Just type "Jack the Ripper location map" into amazon (uk) and there it is. You can clearly see the railway lines and most of the stations too, even without zooming in.

[John Wheat]

Fascinating thread. Reading the detailed descriptions of the differences and/or similarities between the Torso Murders and the Ripper victims, I could not help thinking that "Torsoman" reminds me of H.H. Holmes's approach to totally obliterating his victims much more than the Ripper's more devil-may-care, leave- 'em-where-they-lie method.

I agree Pcdunn

The Torso Murderer and the Ripper seem to have different approaches to there victims. As you say the Torso Killer totally obliterating his victims at some such location whereas the Ripper left them where they lie.

Cheers John

[Joshua Rogan]

Isn't there a theory that places HH Holmes in London at the time of the Ripper murders? If so, from what little I've read of him, he does seem more of a candidate to be Torso-man rather than Jack.

[John Wheat]

Isn't there a theory that places HH Holmes in London at the time of the Ripper murders? If so, from what little I've read of him, he does seem more of a candidate to be Torso-man rather than Jack.

To Joshua

There is a theory that HH Holmes was the Ripper however I think its a weak theory.

Cheers John

[RockySullivan]

Isn't there a theory that places HH Holmes in London at the time of the Ripper murders? If so, from what little I've read of him, he does seem more of a candidate to be Torso-man rather than Jack.

Yes have you looked into the Vincent van Gogh theory?

[Joshua Rogan]

Perhaps they all did it. I suspect that anyone who was even vaguely famous in 1888 - murderers, poets, artists, royals, - descended on Whitechapel from all over the world, for an orgy of violence and bloody murder. In secret, of course.
That way, all the theories are correct!

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm a bit confused by the Whitehall Mystery (not really a surprise, the clue is in the name). Can anyone tell me how many body parts were found?

As far as I can tell from the inquest report and medical texts, only a right arm, upper torso and lower left leg were examined. But several press reports state a left arm was found in the grounds of the Blind School, Lambeth. And I've just found something else that says that arm didn't match, and the real left arm was pulled from the Thames at Lambeth....

Were these just phantom limbs?

[Pcdunn]

H. H. Holmes, sociopath

To Joshua

There is a theory that HH Holmes was the Ripper however I think its a weak theory.

Cheers John

Hello, John, and Joshua,

My understanding is that the theory that Holmes was Jack the Ripper comes from a book by one of his descendants, so we may want to e cautious about it. I've also heard
differing reports as to whether Holmes was in London during the right period or not.

"The Devil in the White City" revealed how Holmes demolished his victims down to having their bones stripped of flesh, articulated as a display skeleton, and sold. Anyone that cold might be the type to find "fun" in discarding assorted body parts around the Thames and London. But we still need to place Holmes in England at the right time.