The Whitehall Mystery

[Debra A]

It depends if it really was a risky disposal site, John. if that comes from Trow too then i'd be naturally a bit dubious now.

I notice that Trow doesn't mention that Elizabeth and Faircloth (from Faircloth's own inquest testimony) spent 5 days staying at a lodging house in Whitechapel in the first week of April 1889. Perhaps one or both of them knew the area or people there.

[Debra A]

To Debra

I find myself debating on wether anyone can truly be an expert on The Torso Killer or for that matter Jack the Ripper? As no one knows who they were for sure. In the same way that someone could be an expert on The Acid Bath Killer/John George Haigh as he is a known serial killer.

Cheers John

I agree, John. I hate the word 'expert' or 'authority' is all. I am interest in these torso cases like everyone on this thread is and have been researching them for over ten years. I don't mind that we all have different ideas about them but I do get annoyed when information that has been shown to be false gets repeated over and over to support a theory.

[RockySullivan]

By the way I didn't mean to embarrass you Debra by tooting your horn. I just find it funny because in my opinion the torso murders are the work of the ripper and the cases have been mainly ignored for a century. The ripper is the most well known and studied killer of all time and yet it seems likes there's only one person who is so knowledgable on these victims. Strange indeed

[Debra A]

By the way I didn't mean to embarrass you Debra by tooting your horn. I just find it funny because in my opinion the torso murders are the work of the ripper and the cases have been mainly ignored for a century. The ripper is the most well known and studied killer of all time and yet it seems likes there's only one person who is so knowledgable on these victims. Strange indeed

That's okay, Rocky.
It's nice to have other interested people to discuss these puzzling cases with after all these years!

[RockySullivan]

I was just reading up on the arnold thread at jtr and Jerry's theory is very interesting. I think the bit about the costermongers apron pocket is vital...as is the man seen taking to Jackson before her death. The man was described as a navvy...the plugging? Tying knots? No connection between fairclough's ever found? Does lynch have a possible connection to spitalfields market perhaps?

[RockySullivan]

The last post of this thread might be of interest to jerry...another case of a man selling a fake story by using the name lynch:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4926/10776.html

[John Wheat]

The Ripper was able to extract the same organ as the torso killer quickly, in the dark out on the street. I'm not sure there is anything to suggest the ripper was an apprentice of the torso killer...It's similar to John G's parody theory...opting for the complicated explanation when the simpler one is more realistic

To Rocky

Well the more simplified explanation is that Jack the Ripper and The Torso Killer were too separate killers who had nothing to do with each other.

Cheers John

[John G]

It depends if it really was a risky disposal site, John. if that comes from Trow too then i'd be naturally a bit dubious now.
So you do think the killer in the Tottenham case could have retained the uterus for a trophy then? You didn't seem to be that keen on that idea with Elizabeth's 'removed' heart.

Hello Debra,

I actually quite like Trow's book and I certainly wouldn't be willing to dismiss the factual information he supplies without supporting evidence.

It seems to me that, in all likelihood, the Tottenham victim was murdered. Surely the only sensible alternative is that she died as the result of a back street procedure, such as an illegal abortion. However, I seem to remember that when Trevor raised this very point, in respect of some of the Torso victims, you pointed out that most back street abortion victims died of sepsis or peritonitis. And, of course, as you also pointed out a victim wouldn't suddenly present with evidence of an infection. In fact, by the time it became obvious that something had gone wrong the victim would, in all probability, be long gone. That's exactly what happened to Emma Smith, who presented with a peritonitis infection some time after being violently assaulted.

Regarding Kelly. As I have noted, there are major differences between Kelly's murder and the Torso victims, indicating a very different signature. However, I also concede that she doesn't seem much like a JtR victim either, particularly when you consider the frenzied nature of the attack, and lack of skill exhibited, so it's a bit of a conundrum. Errata also points out on the other thread that the facial disfigurement should have started with Chapman, rather than, say, the fifth victim in a series, which is another problem. It's a pity that none of the torso victim's heads were discovered. I mean, if it could be shown that he mutilated their faces that really would be interesting!

[Harry D]

To Rocky

Well the more simplified explanation is that Jack the Ripper and The Torso Killer were too separate killers who had nothing to do with each other.

Cheers John

I thought the simplified explanation would be the opposite. After all, you've got two series of murders which overlap one another, wherein the victims (prostitutes) are all violently butchered and there are some parallels in technique. Since the chances of two serial killers working in the same territory at the same time is astronomically high, the parsimonious answer is they were the same individual. Not necessarily my opinion, but I remain open to the idea.

[John G]

I thought the simplified explanation would be the opposite. After all, you've got two series of murders which overlap one another, wherein the victims (prostitutes) are all violently butchered and there are some parallels in technique. Since the chances of two serial killers working in the same territory at the same time is astronomically high, the parsimonious answer is they were the same individual. Not necessarily my opinion, but I remain open to the idea.

Were they operating in the same area? The Torso killer operated London-wide; JtR only in Whitechapel and the surrounding area. Did they operate during the same time period? JtR was active during 1888; the Torso killer possibly between 1873 and 1889. Did they use the same technique? It seems to me the only real evidence for this is a comparison of Jackson and Kelly. However, Kelly's body was so badly damaged, in a frenzied attack, it's difficult to tell: certainly the degree of skill exhibited is radically diffetent. It's also possible that she was the victim of a back street medical procedure. And the Pinchin Street murder was radically different to any of the Whitechapel murders attributed to JtR. Both killers used different signatures. Can you give any examples of where any serial killer has see-sawed between two different signatures?

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

I actually quite like Trow's book and I certainly wouldn't be willing to dismiss the factual information he supplies without supporting evidence.

It seems to me that, in all likelihood, the Tottenham victim was murdered. Surely the only sensible alternative is that she died as the result of a back street procedure, such as an illegal abortion. However, I seem to remember that when Trevor raised this very point, in respect of some of the Torso victims, you pointed out that most back street abortion victims died of sepsis or peritonitis. And, of course, as you also pointed out a victim wouldn't suddenly present with evidence of an infection. In fact, by the time it became obvious that something had gone wrong the victim would, in all probability, be long gone. That's exactly what happened to Emma Smith, who presented with a peritonitis infection some time after being violently assaulted.

Regarding Kelly. As I have noted, there are major differences between Kelly's murder and the Torso victims, indicating a very different signature. However, I also concede that she doesn't seem much like a JtR victim either, particularly when you consider the frenzied nature of the attack, and lack of skill exhibited, so it's a bit of a conundrum. Errata also points out on the other thread that the facial disfigurement should have started with Chapman, rather than, say, the fifth victim in a series, which is another problem. It's a pity that none of the torso victim's heads were discovered. I mean, if it could be shown that he mutilated their faces that really would be interesting!

Hi John,
I was saying I couldn't accept what Trow wrote without question anymore. I was referring to his track record research-wise with high class victims, the girl with the rose tattoo, the Pinchin St torso placed 'between' two drunks, Elizabeth Jackson's father being dead, Faircloth having served his time' in the army' and numerous other 'facts' in the book that are incorrect. Although the book is well written the research doesn't appear to be very thorough.

With Elizabeth Jackson we know no abortion had been performed, Hebbert and Bond detail why they conclude this in their report, we also know her body was dumped only 2 days after death at most, not enough time to die from peritonitis. I have never denied it may be the case with the Whitehall case, we just can't know.
The Pinchin St and Rainham cases involved victims who were definitely not pregnant. Trevor's abortion scenario therefore doesn't fit with those well documented cases 87-89. We know much less about the Tottenham case. Women did die of peritonitis while staying at the homes of abortionists too, there are several documented cases. Do we know this didn't happen in the Tottenham case?

[Debra A]

Were they operating in the same area? The Torso killer operated London-wide; JtR only in Whitechapel and the surrounding area. Did they operate during the same time period? JtR was active during 1888; the Torso killer possibly between 1873 and 1889. Did they use the same technique? It seems to me the only real evidence for this is a comparison of Jackson and Kelly. However, Kelly's body was so badly damaged, in a frenzied attack, it's difficult to tell: certainly the degree of skill exhibited is radically diffetent. It's also possible that she was the victim of a back street medical procedure. And the Pinchin Street murder was radically different to any of the Whitechapel murders attributed to JtR. Both killers used different signatures. Can you give any examples of where any serial killer has see-sawed between two different signatures?

Only the torso killer identified by Trow was operating London-wide, surely?
The torso killer identified by Hebbert was dumping around the Thames embankment and Whitechapel?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Debra,

I actually quite like Trow's book and I certainly wouldn't be willing to dismiss the factual information he supplies without supporting evidence.

It seems to me that, in all likelihood, the Tottenham victim was murdered. Surely the only sensible alternative is that she died as the result of a back street procedure, such as an illegal abortion. However, I seem to remember that when Trevor raised this very point, in respect of some of the Torso victims, you pointed out that most back street abortion victims died of sepsis or peritonitis. And, of course, as you also pointed out a victim wouldn't suddenly present with evidence of an infection. In fact, by the time it became obvious that something had gone wrong the victim would, in all probability, be long gone. That's exactly what happened to Emma Smith, who presented with a peritonitis infection some time after being violently assaulted.


Regarding Kelly. As I have noted, there are major differences between Kelly's murder and the Torso victims, indicating a very different signature. However, I also concede that she doesn't seem much like a JtR victim either, particularly when you consider the frenzied nature of the attack, and lack of skill exhibited, so it's a bit of a conundrum. Errata also points out on the other thread that the facial disfigurement should have started with Chapman, rather than, say, the fifth victim in a series, which is another problem. It's a pity that none of the torso victim's heads were discovered. I mean, if it could be shown that he mutilated their faces that really would be interesting!

What about simple loss of blood during a back street procedure ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

Only the torso killer identified by Trow was operating London-wide, surely?
The torso killer identified by Hebbert was dumping around the Thames embankment and Whitechapel?

One has to wonder, Debra, why the argument was made in the first place; would it be accepted that the killer may have been one and the same if all torso victims had been found in the East End?
Somehow, I canīt see that happening...

The whole discussion has become one where the faulty question "was it or was it not...?" has taken precedence over the more reasonable "could it have been, or could it not...?".
Then again, anybody who looks for a measured discussion with grey nuances inbetween the black and the white, would be wise to change forums.

[Debra A]

One has to wonder, Debra, why the argument was made in the first place; would it be accepted that the killer may have been one and the same if all torso victims had been found in the East End?
Somehow, I canīt see that happening...

Torso man is only allowed in Whitechapel to play games, Fisherman.