The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

If I may say so you and others are reading into bruises on bodies which may have absolutely no relevance to how the person died. You should no that bruises can last 5-6 days after they start to form.

No one knows how these bruises were formed, yet it is still postulated that they were formed in the course of murder. Dont you know that you cant even prove a murder

The desperation to show they were murdered and that they were murdered by a serial killer is beyond belief now on this thread.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

I accept that serial murder isn't the only possible conclusion, however, given the weight of evidence I would submit that it's the most likely. In fact, even the police at the time seemed to accept this. Asst Commissioner James Monro believed the abdominal wound, inflicted on the Pinchin Street victim, may have been made to simulate the Whitechapel murders, which is exactly what I've argued. He concluded that this was not JtR's work but bore a closer link with murders "known as the Rainham Mystery, the new Police building case and the recent case in which portions of a female body [Elizabeth Jackson] were found in the Thames."

[Debra A]

Dr Clarke-[I]
Also of note:

Dr. Clarke-On the outer side of the left forearm, about 3in. above the wrist, was a cut about 2in. in length, and half an inch lower down was another cut. These were caused after death.

Sounds to me like she was tied up before she died. Then the person cut the binding off the wrist after death. Maybe the cord or binding would be incriminating. Such as red tape.

Hi Jerry
An explanation for these cuts given at the time was that they were caused accidentally while the perpetrator was dismembering the thighs at the hip joint while the arms were in a position down the sides of the body. The cuts to the thigh and arms apparently corresponded.

[RockySullivan]

Was it the girl with the rose tattoo" that showed signs of the parts being compressed on top of each other? IF so this along with the lime must indicate something about the killer and how he kept the body

[John G]

Was it the girl with the rose tattoo" that showed signs of the parts being compressed on top of each other? IF so this along with the lime must indicate something about the killer and how he kept the body

Hi Rocky,

Yes, numerous body parts of the Tottenham victim appeared to be slightly crushed, as did some of the Battersea victims (1873) body parts.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

Yes, numerous body parts of the Tottenham victim appeared to be slightly crushed, as did some of the Battersea victims (1873) body parts.

Perhaps they were compressed (atop each other I think) in a cart or wheelbarrow? With something heavy on top? Or more a sign that they were kept in this manner until disposal?

[Fisherman]

I've often wondered why leave the arms on the Pinchin Torso? The other torsos had both the arms and legs removed.

Why indeed? I also think it is an odd thing.

I would like to add a little something to the discussion that may be of interest, and that offers a tantalizing little teaser.
This is what Charles Pinhorn said at the inquest:

"The arms were close to the body and the hands close to the abdomen. The left hand was evidently resting where the gash was."

So the left hand was "evidently" resting where the gash was. Now, how does such a thing get "evident"? Why does Pinhorn use that word?
Arguably because something made it evident that the hand was resting where the gash was. It could be that some body fluid had leaked out onto the hand or something such.

The interesting thing, though, is that we have a Ripper victim who had her left hand placed at the cut into her abdomen - Mary Kelly. Some say it was tucked into the belly, but the photo tells another story - it rests over the opening into Kelly´s abdomen.
It is hard to think that it ended up there on it´s own accord. It seems the killer placed it there.

And speaking of placing left arms and hands over the body, here´s what Phillips said about Chapman:
"The left arm was placed across the left breast."

"Placed". So this is victim number two where the killer seems to have taken an interest in the left arm and hand of the victim, placing it deliberately over the chest.

And here we are with the Pinchin Street torso, and Pinhorn tells us that the left hand of the victim "was evidently resting where the gash was".

What to make of it? I don´t know. Quite possibly, some enterprising poster will go "Oh, now Fisherman thinks that he has proven a connection between the torso victims and the Ripper!"

Alas, I don´t claim such a thing myself. I know perfectly well that the hand could have ended up where the gash was as the trunk was put on the ground. I just point to the fact that three victims have this left arm and hand thing in common, and I leave it to people to make their own minds up about what to think of it.

[John G]

Hi Fisherman,

I think your acute observation is further evidence that Pinchin Street was intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. I mean, consider the other evidence: probably killed on the anniversary of Annie Chapman's murder; Torso left near to Berner Street, possibly by the same arches that Schwartz ran to; "Lipski" written in large chalk letters on pailings opposite where the Torso was dumped; abdominal wound very reminiscent of the wound inflicted on Eddowes; James Monro's report expressing a view that the wound leading to the vagina was made to "simulate" the Whitechapel murders.

And, of course, such an objective would be completely consistent with the Torso killer's warped sense of humour I.e. disposing of Liz Jackson's torso in the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's house; placing the Whitehall Torso in the foundations of the New police headquarters; leaving the Tottenham Torso in an area almost constantly observed by the police, and near to a military drill hall.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

I think your acute observation is further evidence that Pinchin Street was intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. I mean, consider the other evidence: probably killed on the anniversary of Annie Chapman's murder; Torso left near to Berner Street, possibly by the same arches that Schwartz ran to; "Lipski" written in large chalk letters on pailings opposite where the Torso was dumped; abdominal wound very reminiscent of the wound inflicted on Eddowes; James Monro's report expressing a view that the wound leading to the vagina was made to "simulate" the Whitechapel murders.

And, of course, such an objective would be completely consistent with the Torso killer's warped sense of humour I.e. disposing of Liz Jackson's torso in the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's house; placing the Whitehall Torso in the foundations of the New police headquarters; leaving the Tottenham Torso in an area almost constantly observed by the police, and near to a military drill hall.

It is quite easy to follow your logic, John. However, I think that - as an exercise in attributing logic - it would be equally clever to think that Jack may have wanted to impress upon people that the Pinchin Street torso was his work.
One thing that has struck me in combination with the left hand/arm business is that Kelly´s left arm and hand was the one that readily offered itself to the killer, if he was standing by the side of the bed.
Chapmans left arm and hand would, however, be the one furthest away from the killer.
This of course fortifies the idea that the killer may have had a penchant for left arms and hands, perhaps ascribing some sort of meaning into them.

Which that meaning would be, however, is beyond me.

[Pcdunn]

The left side is also called the "sinister" side, after all. Perhaps the killer is making some symbolic comment about the inherent "wickedness" of women in general, and prostitutes in particular. A bit subtle, perhaps, though...

[Michael W Richards]

The fact is that the Torso murders we study most are not the only Torsos that surfaced in the early 1880's, and some preceded JTR. I would think it far more probable that the Torsos were the work of the same man or men than the person or persons who committed those acts was influenced by any other Whitechapel events.

I don't see that its impossible the reverse was actually the case, considering the near decapitations and limb dismemberment..particularly in the Kelly murder.

Cheers

[Rosemary]

The left side is also called the "sinister" side, after all. Perhaps the killer is making some symbolic comment about the inherent "wickedness" of women in general, and prostitutes in particular. A bit subtle, perhaps, though...

If I remember my anthropology classes, eons ago.. goucher, zardo, the left hand was the one you wiped your....bum with. As a sinister I bat right handed all else lefty.

[Debra A]

Why indeed? I also think it is an odd thing.

I would like to add a little something to the discussion that may be of interest, and that offers a tantalizing little teaser.
This is what Charles Pinhorn said at the inquest:

"The arms were close to the body and the hands close to the abdomen. The left hand was evidently resting where the gash was."

So the left hand was "evidently" resting where the gash was. Now, how does such a thing get "evident"? Why does Pinhorn use that word?
Arguably because something made it evident that the hand was resting where the gash was. It could be that some body fluid had leaked out onto the hand or something such.

The interesting thing, though, is that we have a Ripper victim who had her left hand placed at the cut into her abdomen - Mary Kelly. Some say it was tucked into the belly, but the photo tells another story - it rests over the opening into Kelly´s abdomen.
It is hard to think that it ended up there on it´s own accord. It seems the killer placed it there.

And speaking of placing left arms and hands over the body, here´s what Phillips said about Chapman:
"The left arm was placed across the left breast."

"Placed". So this is victim number two where the killer seems to have taken an interest in the left arm and hand of the victim, placing it deliberately over the chest.

And here we are with the Pinchin Street torso, and Pinhorn tells us that the left hand of the victim "was evidently resting where the gash was".

What to make of it? I don´t know. Quite possibly, some enterprising poster will go "Oh, now Fisherman thinks that he has proven a connection between the torso victims and the Ripper!"

Alas, I don´t claim such a thing myself. I know perfectly well that the hand could have ended up where the gash was as the trunk was put on the ground. I just point to the fact that three victims have this left arm and hand thing in common, and I leave it to people to make their own minds up about what to think of it.

But if whoever dumped the Pinchin St torso had the same fascination as JTR seems to have had with placing the left hand of his victims across some part of their body -wouldn't you think he would have turned the Pinchin St torso on to its back to show this off and not place the body chest down where no one could see this?

[Fisherman]

But if whoever dumped the Pinchin St torso had the same fascination as JTR seems to have had with placing the left hand of his victims across some part of their body -wouldn't you think he would have turned the Pinchin St torso on to its back to show this off and not place the body chest down where no one could see this?

A fair enough question - and I am not in any way certain that there WAS a connection such at this one. But I am intrigued by a number of details relating to the case, not least since there are echoes of Nichols (by a railway), Chapman (the date and the arm over the body), Stride (the location and the "Lipski" chalking) and Kelly (the hand at the wound opening) involved.

The one C5 victim I cannot find any potential pointer to is Eddowes, but maybe somebody else can help out on that score?

Of course, Debra, these are more likely than not just coincidences (which is why I wrote that I was dreading that some poster would come out and claim that I had said that I had proven a link between the Ripper and the torso killer) but a rewarding and interesting exercise nevertheless!

[Observer]

Hi Fisherman,

I think your acute observation is further evidence that Pinchin Street was intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. I mean, consider the other evidence: probably killed on the anniversary of Annie Chapman's murder; Torso left near to Berner Street, possibly by the same arches that Schwartz ran to; "Lipski" written in large chalk letters on pailings opposite where the Torso was dumped; abdominal wound very reminiscent of the wound inflicted on Eddowes; James Monro's report expressing a view that the wound leading to the vagina was made to "simulate" the Whitechapel murders.

And, of course, such an objective would be completely consistent with the Torso killer's warped sense of humour I.e. disposing of Liz Jackson's torso in the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's house; placing the Whitehall Torso in the foundations of the New police headquarters; leaving the Tottenham Torso in an area almost constantly observed by the police, and near to a military drill hall.

Hi John

We just don't know when the Pinchin Street "murder" was commited. So, regarding the dates, it's rather a fanciful assumption to connect the Pinchin Street murder to the Annie Chapman murder. Also, if a connection was intended why didn't the murderer dump the body near to the Annie Chapman murder site?

How do we know that the word "Lipski" was written near the murder scene? It would be the easiest thing in the world for am "enterprising journalist" to include this in his article. If a certain "enterprising journalist" posted "Mishter Lusk" a human kidney, well, why wouldn't he want to revert back to those gravy train days when newspapers like The Star were making a fortune on the back of the Whitechapel murders?

I have no doubt that whoever disposed of the body parts during 1887/1889, had a warped sense of humour, I just do not believe that the remains were the result of murder.

[RockySullivan]

Kean observation fishman!

If the hand was positioned there it could mean the torso ripper was staging the parts like the ripper did. If the torso killers objective was shock value couldn't the rippings have been done to maximize shock value and minimize the work?