The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

Hi John G

The post mortem evidence may support your idea that the PST was killed on the anniversary of Anne Chapman's murder.
I was surprised to find how close it was.

M.J.Clarke surgeon said 'I should think the body had been dead at least 24 hours'

Rigor mortis was not present and putrefaction had just commenced.
Obviously there are variations, but rigor mortis typically leaves a body within 36/48 hours.
Green flashes reported on the skin support the conclusion that putrefaction had just commenced, again it varies, but typically occurs 2-3 days after death.

So counting back, around the 7th or 8th of September.

All the best.

Thanks Martin. At the very least it's an incredible coincidence. And, as I noted in my earlier post, I don't think we can exclude the possibility that this murder was intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders, especially when you consider the fact that the Torso was placed very close to where Stride was murdered on Berner Street

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Martin. At the very least it's an incredible coincidence. And, as I noted in my earlier post, I don't think we can exclude the possibility that this murder was intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders, especially when you consider the fact that the Torso was placed very close to where Stride was murdered on Berner Street

John
Several of the Whitechapel victims were murdered close to each other but that doesn't necessarily mean one killer was responsible for all.

I think the terms currently being used on here such as close and nearby are not to be taken literally and these can be misleading to researchers.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

John
Several of the Whitechapel victims were murdered close to each other but that doesn't necessarily mean one killer was responsible for all.

I think the terms currently being used on here such as close and nearby are not to be taken literally and these can be misleading to researchers.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Yes, and as I've noted I don't believe that the Pinchin Street Torso, or any other torso crime for that matter, was the responsibility of JtR. However, I do believe that the Pinchin Street Torso may have been intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. I would also note that Pinchin Street was just a few hundred yards to the south of Berner Street, therefore effectively just round the corner: from Berner Street you could turn left into Fairclough Street, then right into Christian Street- Pinchin Street runs along the end of Christian Street. And the arches, were the Torso was found, were probably the same arches that Schwartz ran to after being confronted by BS man. The pailings, where Lipski was written, were opposite to the arch where the Torso was found.

[Fisherman]

Hello Trevor,

Yes, and as I've noted I don't believe that the Pinchin Street Torso, or any other torso crime for that matter, was the responsibility of JtR. However, I do believe that the Pinchin Street Torso may have been intended as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. I would also note that Pinchin Street was just a few hundred yards to the south of Berner Street, therefore effectively just round the corner: from Berner Street you could turn left into Fairclough Street, then right into Christian Street- Pinchin Street runs along the end of Christian Street. And the arches, were the Torso was found, were probably the same arches that Schwartz ran to after being confronted by BS man. The pailings, where Lipski was written, were opposite to the arch where the Torso was found.

I think there was part of a fence at the entrance to the arch too - and there was of course the arch wall itself. Now, if I had wanted to make a point of sorts, relating to the earlier murders, I would have painted "This one´s another Ripper killing" right there - on the arch wall. I would not write "Lipski" on the other side of the road.
"Lipski" was a very common expression, used, as I understand it, both as a derogatory expression and as a commanding one. It would have been spoken and written all over the East End.

[jerryd]

I think there was part of a fence at the entrance to the arch too - and there was of course the arch wall itself. Now, if I had wanted to make a point of sorts, relating to the earlier murders, I would have painted "This one´s another Ripper killing" right there - on the arch wall. I would not write "Lipski" on the other side of the road.
"Lipski" was a very common expression, used, as I understand it, both as a derogatory expression and as a commanding one. It would have been spoken and written all over the East End.

Hey Fish,

Not that it matters in the meaning of your post, but for the record.

William Pennett-Two of these arches were closed in with fencing to some considerable height. In front of the arch that I first referred to there remained only the uprights of some fencing, which had been taken away.

Also, remember there was more graffitti which was, in my opinion, more relevant to the Pinchin Torso.

The Times 13th September 1889

A singular circumstance is that on many dead walls near the scene of the discovery are the words, written in chalk, "John Cleary is a fool." These words were seen early on Tuesday morning, and before anything was known of the man's visit to the newspaper office.

One of these writings was found at the corner of Frederick Street in immediate proximity of the discovery.

[Harry D]

Hello, John G.

But that doesn't explain the differences in crime signature. For example, as Keppel (2005) point out, all of the C5 victims, except Stride, and Tabram were repeatedly stabbed in the genital area; this is an extremely rare signature characteristic, and is one of the reasons why JtR is labelled a lust murderer. But it is a factor that is completely abscent from the Torso victims, indicating that their killer was motivated by different factors. In fact, this important detail was commented on by the police at the time. Referring to the Pinchin Street Torso, Donald Swanson stated, "there was an absence of attack on genitals as in the series of Whitechapel murders."

That's a valid point but couldn't this be countered by the fact that the Whitehall torso and Elizabeth Jackson both had their uteri removed or operated on? How many killers were there who had a thing for targeting wombs if they weren't botched abortions?

And then, of course, we have MJK's murder. Here the murder took place in private surroundings, and the assailant did not seem to be under any time pressure. And yet Kelly was not decapitated and there was no attempt to dismember or remove the body.

How was he going to remove the body without a cart or whatever?

Different circumstances, different type of murder. Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered or decapitated like the Torso victims but she received pretty much everything else. Perhaps the killer didn't have the necessary tools for a proper dismemberment? Perhaps the heat and stuffiness of Mary Kelly's hovel were sub-optimal working conditions?

What would he do with a human head? Can't exactly stuff it under his jacket. Maybe he didn't feel the need or see the point in removing Mary Kelly's identity when he's killed the victim in her own home?

Regarding a lack of transport. This still doesn't properly explain why all of the C5 murders plus Tabram took place exclusively in Whitechapel, whereas the Torso victims appeared to be selected from a much wider area.

Surely if he had a means of transportation that would also mean he could aim further afield?

The Ripper & the Torso killer, however, in my unprofessional opinion were in likelihood not the same man. Granted, it's rare to find two serial killers with similar traits operating in the same city, but it's not exactly beyond the realms of possibility. Taking into account all of the non-canonical victims from around this time (that we know about!) there was clearly something in the water... or these types of crimes were being afforded more media attention than in previous years.

[martin wilson]

Meanwhile, over in Guildford.

Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald 31st August 1888.

DISCOVERY OF HUMAN REMAINS

A discovery of human remains has been made at the Guildford railway station. A man who was sweeping the station discovered a parcel containing a human foot and leg, which he at once conveyed to the police.
The parcel apparently had been either thrown out of a passing train, or from a bridge which passes over the railway close to where it was found.
The remains have been examined by Mr B.S. Taylor, the police surgeon who states that they consist of a right foot and a portion of a leg, the flesh hanging therefrom having been boiled.
Some of the flesh and toe nails had evidently been boiled away.

All the best.

[Trevor Marriott]

Meanwhile, over in Guildford.

Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald 31st August 1888.

DISCOVERY OF HUMAN REMAINS

A discovery of human remains has been made at the Guildford railway station. A man who was sweeping the station discovered a parcel containing a human foot and leg, which he at once conveyed to the police.
The parcel apparently had been either thrown out of a passing train, or from a bridge which passes over the railway close to where it was found.
The remains have been examined by Mr B.S. Taylor, the police surgeon who states that they consist of a right foot and a portion of a leg, the flesh hanging therefrom having been boiled.
Some of the flesh and toe nails had evidently been boiled away.

All the best.

Thank you Martin. Evidence yet again of body parts being parceled up and disposed of. It begs the question. Disposal after murder or another plausible explanation?

But I suppose there will be those on here who will want to link this incident to the mythical Torso serial killer

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

My imagination is not as fertile and as vivid as some on here

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Meh. Line ball.

[John G]

Hello, John G.



That's a valid point but couldn't this be countered by the fact that the Whitehall torso and Elizabeth Jackson both had their uteri removed or operated on? How many killers were there who had a thing for targeting wombs if they weren't botched abortions?



How was he going to remove the body without a cart or whatever?

Different circumstances, different type of murder. Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered or decapitated like the Torso victims but she received pretty much everything else. Perhaps the killer didn't have the necessary tools for a proper dismemberment? Perhaps the heat and stuffiness of Mary Kelly's hovel were sub-optimal working conditions?

What would he do with a human head? Can't exactly stuff it under his jacket. Maybe he didn't feel the need or see the point in removing Mary Kelly's identity when he's killed the victim in her own home?



Surely if he had a means of transportation that would also mean he could aim further afield?

The Ripper & the Torso killer, however, in my unprofessional opinion were in likelihood not the same man. Granted, it's rare to find two serial killers with similar traits operating in the same city, but it's not exactly beyond the realms of possibility. Taking into account all of the non-canonical victims from around this time (that we know about!) there was clearly something in the water... or these types of crimes were being afforded more media attention than in previous years.

Hello Harry,

Yes, what does seem extraordinary is the number of unusual murders that appeared to have occurred around 1888. In fact, murder itself was very uncommon during this period: by some calculations there were no murders at all in Whitechapel in both 1886 and 1887, and I would have thought that most murders of the period would have been domestic, with an obvious suspect.

Of Course, apart from the C5 and the Torso victims, we have Tabram, Smith, Mylett, Hames (who survived), Haynes, Horsnell, McKenzie and Coles. All unusual murders, apart from Hames, who survived, all unsolved.

[Debra A]

Thank you Martin. Evidence yet again of body parts being parceled up and disposed of. It begs the question. Disposal after murder or another plausible explanation?

But I suppose there will be those on here who will want to link this incident to the mythical Torso serial killer

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If you'd done any research or read anything about the torsos by those who have done some work you'd know that it ended up that it was a skinned, boiled bear's leg that was found at Guildford. The person who bought it and tried to cook it to eat , throwing it out because it tasted disgusting, came forward after the leg was identified as belonging to a bear.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, John G.



That's a valid point but couldn't this be countered by the fact that the Whitehall torso and Elizabeth Jackson both had their uteri removed or operated on? How many killers were there who had a thing for targeting wombs if they weren't botched abortions?



How was he going to remove the body without a cart or whatever?

Different circumstances, different type of murder. Mary Kelly wasn't dismembered or decapitated like the Torso victims but she received pretty much everything else. Perhaps the killer didn't have the necessary tools for a proper dismemberment? Perhaps the heat and stuffiness of Mary Kelly's hovel were sub-optimal working conditions?

What would he do with a human head? Can't exactly stuff it under his jacket. Maybe he didn't feel the need or see the point in removing Mary Kelly's identity when he's killed the victim in her own home?



Surely if he had a means of transportation that would also mean he could aim further afield?

The Ripper & the Torso killer, however, in my unprofessional opinion were in likelihood not the same man. Granted, it's rare to find two serial killers with similar traits operating in the same city, but it's not exactly beyond the realms of possibility. Taking into account all of the non-canonical victims from around this time (that we know about!) there was clearly something in the water... or these types of crimes were being afforded more media attention than in previous years.

Hi Harry
pretty much agree with everything here and pretty much what I have been saying all along.

[Trevor Marriott]

If you'd done any research or read anything about the torsos by those who have done some work you'd know that it ended up that it was a skinned, boiled bear's leg that was found at Guildford. The person who bought it and tried to cook it to eat , throwing it out because it tasted disgusting, came forward after the leg was identified as belonging to a bear.

So we best look for the "bear necessitates, the simple bear necessities forget about your troubles and your strife"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

So we best look for the "bear necessitates, the simple bear necessities forget about your troubles and your strife"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Forget about your 'trouble and strife' and she'll probably give you something to worry about.

[martin wilson]

I have some serious, serious doubts about the competence of Mr B.S.Taylor, police surgeon.

All the best.