The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

What sort of a boat? There weren't no cabin cruisers in those days.

Boats had crew members who probably bunked together in cabins So for someone to take a female on board would stick out, and to kill that person and dismember that person also highly unlikely. The docks were nearby and so boats would dock there. Those boats waiting to come into docks would mostly tie up in the thames.

There is no evidence to suggest taunting or the shock factor.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I would disagree. What about the dump at the Shelley estate. Or dumping the pinchin torso next to dossing drunks?

[jerryd]

Good post. Now it sounds very similar to the pinchin dump. Did fairclough's next to the railway arch have carts going out?

Hi Rocky, thanks.

From PC William Pennett's inquest testimony:

[Coroner]Did you see any one with a bundle? - No, Sir. I did not see a costermonger's cart about. I saw a barrow in Spildts-street. It had a board on it, and had been there the whole time I was on duty. I saw no other cart or vehicle about, with the exception of those coming out of Christian-street, which belonged to Messrs. Fairclough. These started soon after 4 o'clock in the morning. I did not see any of these come down Pinchin-street. These vans went in all directions, and I can't say if any of them went into Cable-street.

[John G]

Hi JG,

The boat is an interesting theory. You may also find this article in the Star of interest.

The Star
FRIDAY, 5 OCTOBER, 1888.

The theory that the victim of the Whitehall crime was a lady, or at any rate a person of good position, which has been asserted, is not now countenanced by the police. It is more likely she was an unfortunate or a servant. Dr. Neville adheres to the opinion that the hand showed indications of hard work. The skin was rough and hard. The finger nails were dirty. It is believed that the head had been cleanly cut from the body by a very sharp instrument, and that the victim was a dark-complexioned woman, presumed to be about 26 years of age, and in stature 5ft. 7in or 5ft. 8in. The site of the new police offices, where the National Opera House was to have been erected, faces the Embankment, and backs on Cannon-row. It is on the west side of the gardens of Whitehall and Buccleuch House, while on the western side of the site are the offices of the Civil Service Commission. Between this house and the site of the police offices is a temporary plank-made road for heavy carts, which deliver the material for building, entering from the Thames Embankment, and passing into Cannon-row, whence they emerge into Parliament-street or into Bridge-street, Westminster. The road by which the loaded carts enter is the nearest way to the recess where the body was found. Brought in a cart, and carried as a load across the planks on to the building, its disposal would be easy in the recess. The murderer, too, could have chosen the dinner hour at which the cart should arrive. There is no doubt the deposit was made by someone intimately acquainted with all the intricacies of the underground part of these works. This fact narrows the examination.

Thanks for this Jerry.

[Debra A]

Where does this term deranged individual come from. I am sure these back st medicos were not deranged.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

It is something John and me keep pointing out to you because for your scenario of an 'unskilled back street medic' attempting an abortion on Elizabeth through an unheard of abdominal operation, then that individual would have had to have been pretty messed up with some sort of psychiatric problems to attempt something much more likely to kill, rather than go with the usual methods.

A massively risky operation like that going wrong would mean an unskilled medic would more than likely have an instant death on his hands. If he'd used the simpler, usual methods I described earlier, practiced for centuries, then by the time any blood poisoning or peritonitis set in (and this is what killed most women who'd had abortions performed on them by back street abortionists, the setting up of an infection) Elizabeth would have been long gone from his premises.

[John G]

Where does this term deranged individual come from. I am sure these back st medicos were not deranged.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But he didn't appear to have even the kind of knowledge, and experience, you would have expected of a back street medic. As Debra as pointed out, he cut into the abdomen of his victims, which would have been totally unnecessary. Surely even a "back st medico" would realise that.

Sorry Debra, just seen your excellent earlier post on the same subject- we must have been posting simultaneously!

[John G]

What sort of a boat? There weren't no cabin cruisers in those days.

Boats had crew members who probably bunked together in cabins So for someone to take a female on board would stick out, and to kill that person and dismember that person also highly unlikely. The docks were nearby and so boats would dock there. Those boats waiting to come into docks would mostly tie up in the thames.

There is no evidence to suggest taunting or the shock factor.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

A simple barge would suffice; it didn't need to be anything fancy. As Rocky pointed out in his post, there's plenty of evidence that the killer intended to display body parts for shock value: Tottenham, Pinchin Street, Whitehall. As I've noted before, if he didn't want the remains to be found why not just bury then? Or alternatively weigh them down before throwing them into the Thames.

[Trevor Marriott]

A simple barge would suffice; it didn't need to be anything fancy. As Rocky pointed out in his post, there's plenty of evidence that the killer intended to display body parts for shock value: Tottenham, Pinchin Street, Whitehall. As I've noted before, if he didn't want the remains to be found why not just bury then? Or alternatively weigh them down before throwing them into the Thames.

A one man barge ?

I say again there is no evidence to support the shock factor. If I have missed something the please tell me what this evidence is. You keep saying the killer intended. You firstly cant prove that the victims were murdered, and you certainly dont know what the killers intentions were if they were in fact murdered.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

A simple barge would suffice; it didn't need to be anything fancy. As Rocky pointed out in his post, there's plenty of evidence that the killer intended to display body parts for shock value: Tottenham, Pinchin Street, Whitehall. As I've noted before, if he didn't want the remains to be found why not just bury then? Or alternatively weigh them down before throwing them into the Thames.

But if a killer or anyone else had dismembered a body and needed to dispose of the parts. That disposal would be determined by several important factors.

1. The location of the dismemberment

2. Likely places of disposal near to the place where the dismemberment took
place. These would have to be fairly close by

3. The risk factor in conveying parcels containing body parts. This would
determine that the place of disposal and as likley as not would need to be
close to the dismemberment

4. Methods of disposal
The Thames
Concealment
Burying
All of the above are relevant

So when you sit and look at things in an unbiased fashion, there is nothing that sticks out and points to a serial killer. There are the long gaps between the different torsos being found, considerable distances between where the body parts were found and as I have stated and will do so for the last time now, there is no direct evidence to show conclusively how these victims died.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I would disagree. What about the dump at the Shelley estate. Or dumping the pinchin torso next to dossing drunks?

"Next to" has to be taken on face value and not literally.

[DJA]

A one man barge ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Better known on the River Thames as a punt.

[Debra A]

A one man barge ?

They were called 'Lighters' and several of the discoveries of remains in the Thames were made by Thames Lightermen.

[Fisherman]

The perpetrator clearly went to a great deal of trouble to dispose of the body, and was therefore clearly an organized offender. Thus, he dismembered the corpse and took steps to prevent the victim being identified, I.e. he retained the head. Why would such a person then be crazy enough to attempt to sell the organs, thus drawing attention to his nefarious activities?

Basically, I agree with you over this, John. But it has to be reflected upon that you yourself say that you think that this killer sought to taunt the police and wanted a shock value to his killings.

So it is not as if he did NOT draw attention to his activities, is it?

We canīt have it both ways. He either sought to minimize the attention - or it was the other way around.

[Trevor Marriott]

Better known on the River Thames as a punt.

Fitted no doubt with a bedroom and an en suite dissecting room

[DJA]

Fitted no doubt with a bedroom and an en suite dissecting room

You have a fertile imagination.

Evidenced by your opinion as to when Abberline was assigned to the Whitechapel case.

[martin wilson]

Hi Trevor

Let's not forget that perambulating pioneer Mary Pearcy, a torso is about pram sized I reckon.

all the best.