The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

Knees? What knees?

Why the knees of the pinchin torso of course...the legs were dismember below them

[Joshua Rogan]

Knees? What knees?

[RockySullivan]

Forgotten victims has some good facts that are looked over in other works. Chapter on pinchin mentions how the wrists had marks from a cord being tightly bound around them. The cause of death was also said to be blood loss from throat slash...Was the victim tortured? why were her wrists tied? Was she kept alive for a time? The body was decomposing when dumped and it was thought the body had been transported from somewhere close to the dump site. A house by house search was conducted in the area. Now the torso also had been tied around the waist with a rope. (Why). The knees were discolored i believe from the victim being in the kneeling position for some time. (Tied up this way and held captive for days?) One thing i found very interesting was the suggestion in the book that PC Pennett may have been told to knock up Jonathan Hurley as a distraction for the torso to be dumped. It was suggested at the time...I wonder who lived in Hurley's building, what he did, where he worked and who he associated with?

[RockySullivan]

Going off memory, wasn't that the arm found near the blind school by the boy?

Have to check that might be another one I do remember that. This one was denied by the police and no official report I think

[jerryd]

In forgotten victims there was a part about an arm being found around the whitehall torso time frame. One of the witnesses describes the arm as having lime powder on I believe

Going off memory, wasn't that the arm found near the blind school by the boy?

[RockySullivan]

In forgotten victims there was a part about an arm being found around the whitehall torso time frame. One of the witnesses describes the arm as having lime powder on I believe

[RockySullivan]

TIL that not only was a 5-6 month old male fetus discovered in a jar but also a newborn female was found wrapped in a ragged old coat at pimlico the same time as Liz Jackson's parts were being discovered all over London. One parcel of Jackson's parts was found at almost the same spot in battersea as a limb of the whitehall torso had previously. The two fetus's is quite an interesting fact I hadn't known about!

[RockySullivan]

Rocky,

I haven't found a connection between the two. Guzzling Jim happened to be mentioned in the article as a person of interest at the same time as the search for John Arnold was going on.

The interesting thing about Jim is the article says he was being tracked for eighteen months as a person of interest as the most likely perpetrator of the "crimes which have caused a shudder through the land". The article was posted in the London Evening News and Post in September of 1889. That would mean they were tracking him in March of 1888. I'm not sure if the informant was mistaken, or the paper made a mistake, but the Whitechapel crimes as far as we know, began in August of 1888. If they actually were tracking this guy for that long, one, he must not have done anything in that eighteen months to cause arrest (he's a non-starter) and two, it poses the question, why were they tracking him in March when the murders began in August and no one was aware of a Jack the Ripper yet?

Yes the whole story seems far fetched but who was the second man they were tracking?

[jerryd]

Rocky,

I haven't found a connection between the two. Guzzling Jim happened to be mentioned in the article as a person of interest at the same time as the search for John Arnold was going on.

The interesting thing about Jim is the article says he was being tracked for eighteen months as a person of interest as the most likely perpetrator of the "crimes which have caused a shudder through the land". The article was posted in the London Evening News and Post in September of 1889. That would mean they were tracking him in March of 1888. I'm not sure if the informant was mistaken, or the paper made a mistake, but the Whitechapel crimes as far as we know, began in August of 1888. If they actually were tracking this guy for that long, one, he must not have done anything in that eighteen months to cause arrest (he's a non-starter) and two, it poses the question, why were they tracking him in March when the murders began in August and no one was aware of a Jack the Ripper yet?

[RockySullivan]

Rocky,

Interesting about Mullins but I think you are right that he may have been too young in 1888/89.

The other part I highlighted in your post is interesting, though. With more than one person they could use dumb motions to signal the arrival of a copper or other witness to avoid detection.

Yes that caught my eye of course since the gang ran back church lane. What is the connection between John Cleary & Guzzling Jim? Interesting read about Jim thanks.

[jerryd]

Not sure the timing would work on that Dodger mullins since this mention is around the 20s and he's described as a young criminal.

"It was now that Harding and his boys began to run the north end of Brick Lane, with Isaac Bogard running the south. A Brick Lane shopkeeper of the time described how they would operate, saying: ‘My corner is a very convenient corner for them, because they can see four ways. They throw out scouts in every direction, and they use dumb motions, they do not talk to each other. When they steal goods they get small boys to take the parcels away, and they take them in different directions. It is very difficult for us tradesmen to carry on our business. Brick Lane has got a very bad name, and it is the men of Harding’s class that give the neighbourhood a bad name.’
...
By the twenties Harding had had enough, and resolved to go straight … ish. He settled down and married Milly, 15 years his junior, and the two settled in a cottage in Gibraltar Gardens, off Bethnal Green Road, with Arthur turning out furniture, tables, easels and boards. He still had a fearsome reputation. One day, a younger criminal called Dodger Mullins knocked on his door demanding protection money. Arthur grabbed a loaded revolver and chased the gang up the road. Again, Harding used the courts to his advantage, seeing Mullins sentenced to six years for demanding money with menaces. He also got a bung of £60 from the gang for withholding elements of his evidence and decided to seek the quieter life."
http://eastlondonhistory.com/2013/01...muel-part-two/

Rocky,

Interesting about Mullins but I think you are right that he may have been too young in 1888/89.

The other part I highlighted in your post is interesting, though. With more than one person they could use dumb motions to signal the arrival of a copper or other witness to avoid detection.

[jerryd]

Dodger and Guzzling Jim, eh? Those old bastards! Nice finds Jerry. I couldn't find anything on Guzzling Jim other than a mention in a jtr thread with a post about forbes winslow. Have you found anything on him or this dodger? It's strange they say the man suspected of being the ripper was receiving letters and postcards from Dodger?

Possible connection? sounds like an interesting book:
"Natalie, I acknowledge the excellent quality of much of the work in the casebook and this has assisted no end in my own studies as an "armchair" historian for this area of personal interest. I also empathise with your affinity for the East End, as I am a "Norf" Londoner but of cockney descent since at least 1837. (My Great Uncle, "Dodger" Mullins, although long dead now, was in fact introduced to the Kray twins by their father as "The Old Guv'nor of the East End. He is also mentioned in Raphael Samuel's "East End Underworld", but I'm afraid that as we also encounter so often with JTR witnesses,I suspect that Arthur Harding was telling a few "porkies". Interesting whether Harding's reference to John "McCarty" of Dorset Street fame as a "bully and a tough guy" has any merit). I also note with interest the information that Professor Fishman still gives talks at the Cloak & Dagger Club.
"
http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/16648.html

I just posted to the other forum today about the story of Guzzling Jim here: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=275495The

The other snippet on Dodger is not a unique find. I have seen it posted somewhere before.

There is also a thread on jtrforum regarding some interesting letters that showed up in 1889 here: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ht=monkey+tree.

The poem is interesting as it talks about 3 people involved, which could explain the torso/ripper different men controversy.

[RockySullivan]

Not sure the timing would work on that Dodger mullins since this mention is around the 20s and he's described as a young criminal.

"It was now that Harding and his boys began to run the north end of Brick Lane, with Isaac Bogard running the south. A Brick Lane shopkeeper of the time described how they would operate, saying: ‘My corner is a very convenient corner for them, because they can see four ways. They throw out scouts in every direction, and they use dumb motions, they do not talk to each other. When they steal goods they get small boys to take the parcels away, and they take them in different directions. It is very difficult for us tradesmen to carry on our business. Brick Lane has got a very bad name, and it is the men of Harding’s class that give the neighbourhood a bad name.’
...
By the twenties Harding had had enough, and resolved to go straight … ish. He settled down and married Milly, 15 years his junior, and the two settled in a cottage in Gibraltar Gardens, off Bethnal Green Road, with Arthur turning out furniture, tables, easels and boards. He still had a fearsome reputation. One day, a younger criminal called Dodger Mullins knocked on his door demanding protection money. Arthur grabbed a loaded revolver and chased the gang up the road. Again, Harding used the courts to his advantage, seeing Mullins sentenced to six years for demanding money with menaces. He also got a bung of £60 from the gang for withholding elements of his evidence and decided to seek the quieter life."

http://eastlondonhistory.com/2013/01/31/arthur-harding-and-raphael-samuel-part-two/

[Harry D]

You know Arnold was said to have a red boil on his face

Yes, although it was said that it looked like a boil that was healing. It could've been a skin condition. He fits the rest of Mr. Blotchy's description.

[RockySullivan]

London Evening News And Post September 21, 1889

Dodger and Guzzling Jim, eh? Those old bastards! Nice finds Jerry. I couldn't find anything on Guzzling Jim other than a mention in a jtr thread with a post about forbes winslow. Have you found anything on him or this dodger? It's strange they say the man suspected of being the ripper was receiving letters and postcards from Dodger?

Possible connection? sounds like an interesting book:
"Natalie, I acknowledge the excellent quality of much of the work in the casebook and this has assisted no end in my own studies as an "armchair" historian for this area of personal interest. I also empathise with your affinity for the East End, as I am a "Norf" Londoner but of cockney descent since at least 1837. (My Great Uncle, "Dodger" Mullins, although long dead now, was in fact introduced to the Kray twins by their father as "The Old Guv'nor of the East End. He is also mentioned in Raphael Samuel's "East End Underworld", but I'm afraid that as we also encounter so often with JTR witnesses,I suspect that Arthur Harding was telling a few "porkies". Interesting whether Harding's reference to John "McCarty" of Dorset Street fame as a "bully and a tough guy" has any merit). I also note with interest the information that Professor Fishman still gives talks at the Cloak & Dagger Club.
"

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/16648.html