The Whitehall Mystery

[Harry D]

While I'm not advocating the spread of misinformation, is there anything to rule out the possibility of torture?

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks Debra. Further highlights the importance of being cautious about secondary sources. However, Mei Trow, a respected writer of true crime, entitled one of his chapters "The Girl with the Rose Tattoo", which your research has also undermined, i.e as regards the bit about the tattoo. However, I still regard the Tottenham Torso as a plausible addition to the series, but perhaps without the rose tattoo!

Hi John, Debs knows way more about the torso murders than Mei Trow, so if she says with confidence that something he published is incorrect, then it is. Incidentally, Trow published a book naming the slow, elderly pauper Robert Mann as Jack the Ripper, so that might tip you off on his motives. Having said that, I enjoyed his torso book, but mainly because it's one of only two published on the torso murders thus far.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

While I'm not advocating the spread of misinformation, is there anything to rule out the possibility of torture?

Yes, there is - a lack of the sort of damage that is normally connected with torture; burnmarks, open wounds etcetera. Of course, there may have been such damage on the missing heads and other lacking pieces, but the indications are that there was no torture.

[jerryd]

I've often wondered why leave the arms on the Pinchin Torso? The other torsos had both the arms and legs removed.

[jerryd]

As far as torture goes, I tend to agree with Fisherman. However the assistant surgeon, Mr Clarke said, On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised. The eight and seven bruises were supposedly from a tight grasp on the arms. The others, on the hands and forearms, sound to me like someone was beating the hell outta her while she covered up her face or chest. Maybe even getting kicked while on the ground?

[John G]

Hi John, Debs knows way more about the torso murders than Mei Trow, so if she says with confidence that something he published is incorrect, then it is. Incidentally, Trow published a book naming the slow, elderly pauper Robert Mann as Jack the Ripper, so that might tip you off on his motives. Having said that, I enjoyed his torso book, but mainly because it's one of only two published on the torso murders thus far.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Yes, I agree, Debra's understanding of the Torso cases is exceptional; I've suggested that she write a definitive book on the subject! I've read both of Trow's books, I.e on Mann and the Torso murders, and I also found the Torso murders book to be an enjoyable read. However, there does appear to be the odd flaw, such as the rose tattoo. I consider his conclusions as to the social status of the victims to be questionable; and Trevor Marriott's expert, Dr Biggs, has undermined the opinions of the Victorian doctors- which Trow, of course, relies upon- regarding the degree of skill demonstrated by the perpetrator and the type of tools used for dismemberment.

[John Wheat]

I wonder what the Torso Killer did with the heads. Did he keep them just to make sure he was never identified? Did he perform sex acts with them? Does anyone have any thoughts?

[RockySullivan]

As far as torture goes, I tend to agree with Fisherman. However the assistant surgeon, Mr Clarke said, On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised. The eight and seven bruises were supposedly from a tight grasp on the arms. The others, on the hands and forearms, sound to me like someone was beating the hell outta her while she covered up her face or chest. Maybe even getting kicked while on the ground?

And fairclough's black eyes...Hm suspicious

[John G]

As far as torture goes, I tend to agree with Fisherman. However the assistant surgeon, Mr Clarke said, On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised. The eight and seven bruises were supposedly from a tight grasp on the arms. The others, on the hands and forearms, sound to me like someone was beating the hell outta her while she covered up her face or chest. Maybe even getting kicked while on the ground?

Hi Jerry,

I believe Dr Clarke, after examining the Pinchin Torso, concluded that bruising to the backs of the hands and forearm were caused by a tight grip. There were also bruises on the back which were caused in life.

[John G]

I wonder what the Torso Killer did with the heads. Did he keep them just to make sure he was never identified? Did he perform sex acts with them? Does anyone have any thoughts?

Hi John,

I think the main reason the heads were retained was to prevent identification. However, they may also have been kept as trophies.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

I think the main reason the heads were retained was to prevent identification. However, they may also have been kept as trophies.

I agree John however I wouldn't rule out the Killer using the heads for sex acts.

Cheers John

[Trevor Marriott]

I agree John however I wouldn't rule out the Killer using the heads for sex acts.

Cheers John

Then that puts a whole new meaning to the term "giving head"

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

I believe Dr Clarke, after examining the Pinchin Torso, concluded that bruising to the backs of the hands and forearm were caused by a tight grip.

Dr Clarke-On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised.
Dr Clarke-The bruises on the right arm were such as would be caused by the arms having been tightly grasped.

I don't think the back of the hands being bruised indicate being from a tight grasp. They seem more defensive.

There were also bruises on the back which were caused in life.

Dr. Clarke-On the level of the top of the hip bone was a bruise 2 1/2ins. in diameter. It was such a bruise as would be caused by a fall or a kick.

Also of note:

Dr. Clarke-On the outer side of the left forearm, about 3in. above the wrist, was a cut about 2in. in length, and half an inch lower down was another cut. These were caused after death.

Sounds to me like she was tied up before she died. Then the person cut the binding off the wrist after death. Maybe the cord or binding would be incriminating. Such as red tape.

[Trevor Marriott]

Dr Clarke-On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised.
Dr Clarke-The bruises on the right arm were such as would be caused by the arms having been tightly grasped.

I don't think the back of the hands being bruised indicate being from a tight grasp. They seem more defensive.



Dr. Clarke-On the level of the top of the hip bone was a bruise 2 1/2ins. in diameter. It was such a bruise as would be caused by a fall or a kick.

Also of note:

Dr. Clarke-On the outer side of the left forearm, about 3in. above the wrist, was a cut about 2in. in length, and half an inch lower down was another cut. These were caused after death.

Sounds to me like she was tied up before she died. Then the person cut the binding off the wrist after death. Maybe the cord or binding would be incriminating. Such as red tape.

If I may say so you and others are reading into bruises on bodies which may have absolutely no relevance to how the person died. You should no that bruises can last 5-6 days after they start to form.

No one knows how these bruises were formed, yet it is still postulated that they were formed in the course of murder. Dont you know that you cant even prove a murder

The desperation to show they were murdered and that they were murdered by a serial killer is beyond belief now on this thread.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Dr Clarke-On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised.
Dr Clarke-The bruises on the right arm were such as would be caused by the arms having been tightly grasped.

I don't think the back of the hands being bruised indicate being from a tight grasp. They seem more defensive.



Dr. Clarke-On the level of the top of the hip bone was a bruise 2 1/2ins. in diameter. It was such a bruise as would be caused by a fall or a kick.

Also of note:

Dr. Clarke-On the outer side of the left forearm, about 3in. above the wrist, was a cut about 2in. in length, and half an inch lower down was another cut. These were caused after death.

Sounds to me like she was tied up before she died. Then the person cut the binding off the wrist after death. Maybe the cord or binding would be incriminating. Such as red tape.

Hello Jerry,

This is interesting. If you're correct about her being tied up, and possibly kicked, this is another reason to reject JtR. His MO was very different, and involved the victim being quickly overpowered, possibly strangled, and their throats cut. And there is little evidence that any of his [JtR's] possible victims were given the opportunity to resist, I.e defensive wounds