The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

As I've argued before, the coincidences that you refer to can be explained if we regard the Pinchin Street Torso as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. She was also dismembered, unlike any of the C5, and killed elsewhere from where the body was found, unlike any of the C5. Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, argues that that we do not know what a killer's intention may have been; Eddowes killer, for example, may have intended to remove different organs.

A parody...that's always possible but of course the much simpler explanation (Occam's razor like you said)...is not that the killer is making a parody but that they are connected

[RockySullivan]

The point is you are coming up with a theory to explain the coincidences rather than accept the simpler explanation that they are the same killer. Now a killer who strikes twice on the same day one year apart that could be a big clue if we could discern why that day

[John G]

A parody...that's always possible but of course the much simpler explanation (Occam's razor like you said)...is not that the killer is making a parody but that they are connected

I would have thought that Occam's razor would lead us to conclude that the Pinchin Street Torso was a victim of the Torso killer, not JtR. JtR did not dismember his victims, made no attempt to disguise their identity, and didn't use dump sites. And, as Donald Swanson pointed out, even the mutilations suggested a very different motives I.e no genital mutilation.

[RockySullivan]

I would consider taking out the uterus genital mutilation, isn't it? The abdominal opening from pub to rib cage is the same as eddowes
. You are saying all the coincidences between the pinchin torso and ripper is because the torso killer wanted to give a nod to the ripper murders, but why not consider he was the ripper? It's much less complicated. Look at Kelly, the ripper varies his MO and he kills indoors

[John G]

I would consider taking out the uterus genital mutilation, isn't it? The abdominal opening from pub to rib cage is the same as eddowes
. You are saying all the coincidences between the pinchin torso and ripper is because the torso killer wanted to give a nod to the ripper murders, but why not consider he was the ripper? It's much less complicated. Look at Kelly, the ripper varies his MO and he kills indoors

Monroe made the interesting point that the wound leading to the vagina may have been made to simulate the Whitechapel murders: such an act of mischievous would be consistent with the Torso killer's MO but not the Whitechapel murderer.

Where's the evidence that the Pinchin Street victim's uterus was removed? I think you'll find that was just a myth.

[RockySullivan]

Monroe made the interesting point that the wound leading to the vagina may have been made to simulate the Whitechapel murders: such an act of mischievous would be consistent with the Torso killer's MO but not the Whitechapel murderer.

Where's the evidence that the Pinchin Street victim's uterus was removed? I think you'll find that was just a myth.

I'm not sure about pinchin, I think whitehall & jackson, but I see you were specifically talking about the pinchin torso mutilations my mistake. Interesting how the pinchin torso was dismembered below the knees right? Strange. September 8 might still hold the clue. I wonder if there was something that went on in the area around that time or if possibly whoever the killer lived with went to visit family at that time, like a birthday or something

[John Wheat]

I recently read an article online that claimed there was evidence Liz Jackson had been tortured by the Torso Killer and either shackled to something or put in stocks. Is this article bullshit?

[John G]

I recently read an article online that claimed there was evidence Liz Jackson had been tortured by the Torso Killer and either shackled to something or put in stocks. Is this article bullshit?

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

[Fisherman]

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

Elizabeth Jacksons second arm was found on the 10:th of June, and the fist on that arm was very tightly clenched. Michael Gordon reasons that this implicates that Jackson was in very much pain when she died, but I think it may just as well be a sign of suffocation.
Otherwise, there is nothing to indicate any possible torture, as far as I understand, let alone any use of shackles.

[John G]

Elizabeth Jacksons second arm was found on the 10:th of June, and the fist on that arm was very tightly clenched. Michael Gordon reasons that this implicates that Jackson was in very much pain when she died, but I think it may just as well be a sign of suffocation.
Otherwise, there is nothing to indicate any possible torture, as far as I understand, let alone any use of shackles.

There were a number of circular scars on the upper left arm, but Trow suggests they were indicative of vaccination. There was also an inch long scar, but that was an old injury: in fact, it was the means by which she was identified by her mother.

[Debra A]

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

Hi all
Author Sarah Pinborough wrote a fictional novel 'Mayhem' based on the Thames Torso cases and I believe she includes graphic, fictional accounts of the victims' torure.

[John G]

Hi all
Author Sarah Pinborough wrote a fictional novel 'Mayhem' based on the Thames Torso cases and I believe she includes graphic, fictional accounts of the victims' torure.

Thanks Debra. Perhaps she's branched out into Ripperology, but is starting to merge fact with fiction. Mind you, thinking about it that could mean that she's a member of this site!

[John Wheat]

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. I'd assumed the article was bullshit as I've never read or heard anything regarding evidence of torture being present in relation to any of the Torso Murders.

Cheers John

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. Perhaps she's branched out into Ripperology, but is starting to merge fact with fiction. Mind you, thinking about it that could mean that she's a member of this site!

I think some people are just unable to separate fact from fiction, John. Sarah Pinborough's book was marketed as a fictional treatment of a historic case but there are those, like the person writing on the 'Bermuda Traingle' website about the torso cases for example, who will repeat something like that as though it were a true account.

[John G]

I think some people are just unable to separate fact from fiction, John. Sarah Pinborough's book was marketed as a fictional treatment of a historic case but there are those, like the person writing on the 'Bermuda Traingle' website about the torso cases for example, who will repeat something like that as though it were a true account.

Thanks Debra. Further highlights the importance of being cautious about secondary sources. However, Mei Trow, a respected writer of true crime, entitled one of his chapters "The Girl with the Rose Tattoo", which your research has also undermined, i.e as regards the bit about the tattoo. However, I still regard the Tottenham Torso as a plausible addition to the series, but perhaps without the rose tattoo!