The Whitehall Mystery

[Trevor Marriott]

You have a fertile imagination.

Evidenced by your opinion as to when Abberline was assigned to the Whitechapel case.

My imagination is not as fertile and as vivid as some on here

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[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

Let's not forget that perambulating pioneer Mary Pearcy, a torso is about pram sized I reckon.

all the best.

Then there would no need to dismember the body totally

and the need not to travel to far with the contents before disposal in the dead of night

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[martin wilson]

Depends, she was quite mad it seems.
Someone more cautious might be aware if they are caught with a body in the pram it's going to be somewhat difficult to explain.
A parcel however is far less conspicuous.

All the best.

[Trevor Marriott]

Depends, she was quite mad it seems.
Someone more cautious might be aware if they are caught with a body in the pram it's going to be somewhat difficult to explain.
A parcel however is far less conspicuous.

All the best.

Yes you are right but this scenario could apply to both killer and medico could it not? and I cant see either wanting to travel to far with body parts wrapped in parcels. Either would have to have had some idea as to where they were going to dispose of them when they set off, and would have to have knowledge of the area. I would suspect they were disposed of at perhaps different times and different locations to avoid them all being found together which would have defeated the object of dismemberment.

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[John G]

But if a killer or anyone else had dismembered a body and needed to dispose of the parts. That disposal would be determined by several important factors.

1. The location of the dismemberment

2. Likely places of disposal near to the place where the dismemberment took
place. These would have to be fairly close by

3. The risk factor in conveying parcels containing body parts. This would
determine that the place of disposal and as likley as not would need to be
close to the dismemberment

4. Methods of disposal
The Thames
Concealment
Burying
All of the above are relevant

So when you sit and look at things in an unbiased fashion, there is nothing that sticks out and points to a serial killer. There are the long gaps between the different torsos being found, considerable distances between where the body parts were found and as I have stated and will do so for the last time now, there is no direct evidence to show conclusively how these victims died.

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But this is just the point I've been making. If disposal of the body was the only motive there was no need to take such enormous risks by leaving the remains in such risky locations. You also have to consider the fact that there are linking factors with the 1887-1889 torsos, I.e in respect of the mutilations, as well as the rarity of this type of crime-no recorded incidents between 1874 and 1884.

[John G]

Yes you are right but this scenario could apply to both killer and medico could it not? and I cant see either wanting to travel to far with body parts wrapped in parcels. Either would have to have had some idea as to where they were going to dispose of them when they set off, and would have to have knowledge of the area. I would suspect they were disposed of at perhaps different times and different locations to avoid them all being found together which would have defeated the object of dismemberment.

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Where is there evidence of any medical procedure being carried out on any of these victims?

[John G]

They were called 'Lighters' and several of the discoveries of remains in the Thames were made by Thames Lightermen.

Thanks Debra. Could a Victorian lighter barge be operated by a single crew member?

[Trevor Marriott]

But this is just the point I've been making. If disposal of the body was the only motive there was no need to take such enormous risks by leaving the remains in such risky locations. You also have to consider the fact that there are linking factors with the 1887-1889 torsos, I.e in respect of the mutilations, as well as the rarity of this type of crime-no recorded incidents between 1874 and 1884.

The person with the body parts would have wanted to get rid of them as soon as possible anywhere quiet and relativley hidden where they were not likely to be found would have sufficed. In the dark places look different to the daytime.

Hiding something in a location at night which to the hider would seem secluded in the daylight might not be the case.

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[John G]

The person with the body parts would have wanted to get rid of them as soon as possible anywhere quiet and relativley hidden where they were not likely to be found would have sufficed. In the dark places look different to the daytime.

Hiding something in a location at night which to the hider would seem secluded in the daylight might not be the case.

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But you can't seriously be arguing that placing body parts in the darkened and difficult to access vaults of the Scotland Yard building, which may also have involved scaling a 9ft fence, was done for reasons of expediency! And what about the Tottenham Torso, deposited in broad daylight, next to a military drill hall, in an a place almost constantly observed by the police. And Pinchin Street: Torso deposited next to two sleeping drunks. And what about the other important factors, relating to the Pinchin Street Torso? Thus, body deposited by the arches that Schwartz ran to; victim probably killed on the anniversary of Chapman's death; ?"Lipski" written in large chalk marks.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. Could a Victorian lighter barge be operated by a single crew member?

Hi John
I think many would have been operated by two men, depending on the journey and amount of physical work involved but there are many photographs in existence that show lone lightermen at work on the Thames so they must have gone out alone sometimes too.

[John G]

Hi John
I think many would have been operated by two men, depending on the journey and amount of physical work involved but there are many photographs in existence that show lone lightermen at work on the Thames so they must have gone out alone sometimes too.

Thanks Debra, much appreciated. It seems that my boat theory is far from being sunk without trace!

[John G]

Basically, I agree with you over this, John. But it has to be reflected upon that you yourself say that you think that this killer sought to taunt the police and wanted a shock value to his killings.

So it is not as if he did NOT draw attention to his activities, is it?

We canīt have it both ways. He either sought to minimize the attention - or it was the other way around.

Hi Fisherman,

Fair point. However, there would be no need for a killer to sell on the body parts: They would surely either dispose of them, keep them as trophies, or display them for shock value, I.e Miller's Court. And, of course, attempting to sell body parts carries the risk that he may be subsequently positively identified.

[martin wilson]

I recall that one of the problems the police had investigating the Green river murders was the rootless lifestyle of the victims. It being difficult to establish if someone was genuinely missing or had simply moved away.
How often have we read of the various addresses of the C5? Just a thought that the Victorian police may have had the same problem.

All the best.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

Fair point. However, there would be no need for a killer to sell on the body parts: They would surely either dispose of them, keep them as trophies, or display them for shock value, I.e Miller's Court. And, of course, attempting to sell body parts carries the risk that he may be subsequently positively identified.

A better approach, altogether - although we need once again to admit that this was a killer who - if your (and my, as it were) assessment that he sought to shock and taunt has anything going for it - was quite willing to take risks!

That is why I say we canīt have it both ways. And it is also where I see a possibility to bridge the differences between the torso killer and Jack the Ripper; if the deeds were in both cases to an (unknown) extent designed to meet other preferences than his own, then we cannot say that both series could not be by the same hand. Plus, of course, we could add historical predecessors with VERY varying mo:s between their killings, like for instance Peter Kürten, where the Duesseldorf police sought three or four different killers, but found them compiled into one man only.

[Trevor Marriott]

But you can't seriously be arguing that placing body parts in the darkened and difficult to access vaults of the Scotland Yard building, which may also have involved scaling a 9ft fence, was done for reasons of expediency! And what about the Tottenham Torso, deposited in broad daylight, next to a military drill hall, in an a place almost constantly observed by the police. And Pinchin Street: Torso deposited next to two sleeping drunks. And what about the other important factors, relating to the Pinchin Street Torso? Thus, body deposited by the arches that Schwartz ran to; victim probably killed on the anniversary of Chapman's death; ?"Lipski" written in large chalk marks.

I am not so certain about the scaling of a nine foot fence thats going to extreme lengths for killer or medico when there were much easier and more accessible locations. I think those facts may be wrongly reported or have been misinterpreted .

As to the rest of your post I think you are trying to fit square pegs into round holes. You are trying to read things that are not there to be read.

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