Need Some Assistance/Input

[Ginger]

Try http://www.victorianlondon.org/publi...newtoilers.htm - it's an online version of "Toilers in London; or Inquiries concerning Female Labour in the Metropolis", from 1889. It has a good overview of lower class female labour, considered from a middle class perspective.

[arialburnz]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL FOR THE INPUT!!! I'm just beside myself here with the wonderful suggestions and information!!! You are all definitely going into my acknowledgments and getting a copy of my books (if you're interested). Thank you!!!

I'm going to hit "Reply" to each comment for discussion. Thanks again!!!

[arialburnz]

I'm a good guy vampire fan, too, and with my writing partner have written some published fan fiction, so I've researched the Victorian era.

Yay! Then you might enjoy my books. I'm trying to write each one as a stand alone, but the teasers for the overall story have swept my readers into starting from the beginning. The choice is yours, of course!

In my opinion, the barrister choosing to be a cop scenario will not work. It is important to remember that while being a constable or a detective was a needed job, higher classes looked down on them considerably. I'm not sure a young man educated to know the law and rich enough to be a barrister would want to lower himself to mix with the cops and street toughs.

Duly noted. I was actually going to degrade his family heritage a bit...Grandpa was a fairly respected barrister - not hugely successful, but enough to leave his grandson and son some kind of inheritance. But Ben's dad, Albert, was a bit of a bad boy, had an affair when Ben was young and got a girl in trouble by getting her pregnant and pretty much ruined her life. SHE (Julia) ended up on the streets and he's been paying her some money on the side through the years to keep her quiet and off the radar. This will blow up at the time of my story and cause some complications.

I'm thinking it was grandpa's idea to pay Julia and maybe even her family (mother or step-mother) off and Grandpa has been a pretty strict father ever since, watching Albert's every move since then OR he could have kept his son at arm's length and thought making him fend for himself was the better lesson, perhaps publicly disowning him. But then just before my story opens, perhaps Grandpa will die and Ben & Albert will receive some inheritance anyway, so Ben will come into some money.

What I'm not sure of is if Albert was caught up in this scandal, how badly would it affect him? Is the above scenario possible? Would he no longer be able to practice law and have to chose another profession or perhaps forced to because of Grandpa's efforts to distance himself? The girl he had an affair with was a little lower in class than he was (I'm thinking), but he pretty much ruined her regardless. So, I'm thinking Albert took a pretty big hit and has been paying for it since...literally and figuratively.

Victorian classes were fairly stratified, and strict. Very often you stayed in the area you were born in, and the occupation your father followed (especially for the lower classes, which were the primary occupants of the Whitechapel area). Opportunities for women were even fewer, and mostly limited to marriage, or some occupation in a shop, factory, home business (taking in laundry, making piece work), selling things at the market, etc. What background did you give your heroine? Where did she grow up? What did her parents do? That will give a guideline to what condition she may be in.

Belle's mother was a drunkard and relied on a man, who ended up abandoning her when Belle was around 12. Then Belle's mom drinks herself to death and the poor girl is thrown from one situation to another based on her living conditions. I'm reading Prof. Fishman's book and almost in tears at the living conditions of the East End and what happened to women. Belle will NOT have a nice life. I was thinking if I went the laundress route, her mother could have done that to support herself and that's how she's able to support herself. I might have to make Belle just a little older when her mother dies, enabling her to pick up where her mum left off and handle the established clients.

The prostitute was the most despised type of woman in Victorian times. Whether called "daughters of joy," or "unfortunates," they were those women who had "fallen" upon very hard times, and had nothing left to sell or offer except their own bodies. A police constable might fall in love with a prostitute, but a barrister could never expect to marry one and ever have any kind of respect from his peers.
I like the laundress idea better, or perhaps a weaver might work. You might also investigate if women were employed at the local hospitals at that time. Not as doctors, of course, and perhaps not even as nurses, but laundresses would have been in demand there, I'm sure.
Hope this helps. Good luck!

I agree with the above assessments. Based on all the comments here, the laundress might be a little more fitting for my storyline. I literally want Ben and Belle to be at the altar, Rick a reluctant participant to marry her off because of his love for her, but sticking to his decision that this is the better option for her...and have the wedding interrupted at the last minute due to my little story twist.

Thank you for all these suggestions and comments!!

[arialburnz]

Prostitute.

Here you have I think some problems.

1. The chances of a cop from a well to do family hooking up with a prostitute are, in my opinion, next to zero.

Check!

2. It really was for most women a occupation of last resort, I can't see your lady going from self supporting to prostitute in the time it took a broken arm to heel, say 4 to 6 weeks.

Actually, I wasn't going to make her a prostitute after she broke her arm. The busted arm was more about her laundress job, which was supporting her until she was attacked...and now she is in such dire straits that she feels she will HAVE to marry Ben or take Rick's proposition to support her, who is, in essence, a complete stranger with, what she thinks is, a hidden agenda. She'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop on Rick's proposal.

3. How about have her working in a match factory, many women worked there it was a dangerous job and poor pay which would let her meet the policeman and at the same time allow Rick to worry about her.

Something I will definitely consider if I continue to run into problems with my storyline regarding the laundress.

4. It seems that Ben being a cop is central to your story, so maybe bring his background down a notch, how about the son of a teacher or clergyman. And if necessary have the clergyman from a more well to do family, I know of at least one line of my family where the chain went.

I really only wanted Ben to be a cop to put him in the center of the Ripper murders and perhaps be available to rescue Belle once she is attacked. The story will open up with her already in hospital after the attack. But it's not necessary. I'm really open to whatever will fit my storyline of him being well-enough to do to get her out of Whitechapel. Ben wants to rescue her and Rick is hoping she has someone to do that. But I also want the Ripper murders to mix in with my story...or I'm just throwing them into the setting just because JTR fascinates me. I really try to weave real history into my storylines whenever I can and then give my own twist to it. In this situation, JTR is actually a vampire and an old friend-turned-rival of Rick's.

Well off, owner of sheep farm, worker of wool for the carpet industry and maltster [producing malt for brewers].

Clergyman and associate of the King.

Policeman

And I'm pretty sure they would have approved of him marrying a pro.

"Him marrying a pro" meaning a prostitute? Just clarifying.

5. If you are using the ripper and telling your readers his thoughts have him think she is a prostitute for some reason, maybe because of where he sees her, or he confuses her with someone else.

When Rick starts chasing after JTR because he knows who he is based on his killing pattern, JTR will start confronting Rick...and he'll find out about Belle. Belle will then be JTR's next target just because of Rick. I've set this vampire up, named Laurent Jacques Bellamy, way back in Book 3 and fed a little more information about his killing pattern in Book 4. Now it's coming to light here.

6. Can you have her background someone linking up with Ben's maybe from the same village or have her from the ripper's village and her slighting him at some point and that's why he wants to rip her and Rick somehow gets word of this.

7. Prostitutes liven in many areas, just look at the victims section here.

Just a few thoughts you may wish to ponder.

These are all wonderful, Gut!!! Thank you!!!!

[GUT]

"Him marrying a pro" meaning a prostitute? Just clarifying.

Yep, sorry for the slang.

[arialburnz]

I really should stop thinking about this, but could Jack have a little chuckle to himself over the police even think that he selected his victims because they were prostitutes, but some other reason.

Hee hee! I love it that you're still thinking about all this. JTR and getting into his head is the main reason I'm so fascinated with adding him to my storyline. I've studied many serial killers and their MO's to feed my villains throughout my writing. I think the most interesting part of writing a villain is understanding his motivation from his perspective. I've learned no one thinks they're the villain. They always have some reason to do what they do and justify it in their minds...or turn off their emotions while they commit their crimes and then conduct all their reasonings later. JTR in this story is a vampire and my vampires learn everything about someone through their blood when they feed. Once one of my vampires drinks from a victim, there are no secrets and he almost relives everything his victim lived. Laurent (aka JTR) gets his thrills off of the remembered sexual encounters from his victims. And Laurent's history is pretty goddamn twisted. Feeding off the fears and sexual encounters of his victims is his escape. As a vampire, his motivation to kill is more about sustenance...and he certain loves to play with his food. Mwuahahahaha!

[GUT]

Duly noted. I was actually going to degrade his family heritage a bit...Grandpa was a fairly respected barrister - not hugely successful, but enough to leave his grandson and son some kind of inheritance. But Ben's dad, Albert, was a bit of a bad boy, had an affair when Ben was young and got a girl in trouble by getting her pregnant and pretty much ruined her life. SHE (Julia) ended up on the streets and he's been paying her some money on the side through the years to keep her quiet and off the radar. This will blow up at the time of my story and cause some complications.

I'm thinking it was grandpa's idea to pay Julia and maybe even her family (mother or step-mother) off and Grandpa has been a pretty strict father ever since, watching Albert's every move since then OR he could have kept his son at arm's length and thought making him fend for himself was the better lesson, perhaps publicly disowning him. But then just before my story opens, perhaps Grandpa will die and Ben & Albert will receive some inheritance anyway, so Ben will come into some money.

To me that's a better fit, or make Grandad a more successful Barrister, Ben's dad say the 3rd or 4th son, thus getting little by way of inheritance, being bitter and going off track, could you make Ben's mum either one of Jack's known victims or one of the witnesses who was also an unfortunate.

did have another thought overnight, what if someone close to Ben is myrdered thus leading him to a life n law and order and while with his family influence [going with the well to do dad] he chooses to start at the bottom and work his way up.

[arialburnz]

Hello, GUT,

I rather like this, though it would throw out most of the letters, unless Jack wrote 'Dear Boss' as a red herring. If he never wrote any letters, then Sickert and the other pranksters were automatically assuming a hatred of prostitues was the motive. Interesting... Maybe JTR just hated women in general, and these were the ones to cross his path. Or it was some other reason...

You were right about the newspapers being primary sources, of course. Thanks for the info in that other thread.

Funny you should mention the letters, Gut...that's how Rick knows it's his old buddy, Laurent. "Boss" was Laurent's nickname for those he despised, like authority figures or those who he assumed thought they were better than him - Rick, for instance. Rick reads the paper about the Dear Boss letter and the fact that the victims are all prostitutes...and he gets an eerie but familiar chill and foreboding.

I know there have been confessions that the letters were planted by the press to sell papers, but I had thought JTR would run into the guy from the press and give him the letter, confessing his name and telling him to send the letter or he'd end up dead. Jack's fangs and the silver glow in his eyes is definitely convincing enough for him to do what the vampire says, but he absolutely refuses to own up to that part of the encounter, otherwise people will think he'd lost his mind. He mails the letter as instructed. I'll probably do the scene from the journalist's POV - the encounter, Jack handing him the letter - and then have him think something like, "If I live to tell the tale, I'll confess to mailing the letter, but there is no way in hell I can say what I've seen. They'll lock me up and throw away the key!" Or whatever. Ergo, my paranormal twist on historical events.

[arialburnz]

You could have her do a variety of jobs if she's independent. She could be both a street hawker (women did do it) which would put her out on the streets in danger, selling flowers and fruits and such, AND also have her do some needlework for sale from her home to make ends meet. She could also be a factory worker, as they did employ women as well, usually in textiles or other assembly type factories.

These are all wonderful suggestions and if the laundress thing doesn't work out, I will definitely explore these - especially about the needlework. In her previous life, at the beginning of the series, she actually is very good as embroidery, so this would be a nice throw-over from her past life. Thank you!

[arialburnz]

Try http://www.victorianlondon.org/publi...newtoilers.htm - it's an online version of "Toilers in London; or Inquiries concerning Female Labour in the Metropolis", from 1889. It has a good overview of lower class female labour, considered from a middle class perspective.

Thank you, Ginger!!! I will definitely look at that! GREAT additional resource!! Mwah!

[Errata]

I come from a play writing background, so my angle is always finding the easiest way to insert a character and explain their presence, rather than having 11 pages of dialogue getting everything out in the open.

The easiest way to accomplish what I think you want is to make your lead character a fallen women of wealth. A teen pregnancy resulting from a foolish dalliance or a rape, and her insistence on keeping the child. It was the type of scenario that could have landed her in an asylum if her parents were of a mind to it. If she is the rebel type, she could refuse to hide it, refuse to be ashamed of it, and have been thrown out of her parents home. That neatly puts her on the streets without a lot of explanation, because a pregnant teenager being kicked out of a stuck up family is like, two sentences of exposition. And she doesn't have to actually deliver, and if she does, the baby could die, or she could give it away. All choices that don't require a lot of explanation. With this we would know why she was on the streets, and why she isn't going back. It is not super accurate. Women of means who made mistakes generally could hide them. It was considered the only thing to do. But a progressive woman might choose to shame someone who took advantage of her by staying visible.

But it would also be the easiest explanation for a proposal that would take her out of the slums. If her family was nobility, a rich nobody would be very interested in an alliance. Even with damaged goods. And the same applies for poor nobles who need money infused into the family. It would be a proposal everyone would tell was too good to pass up, but it would be little more than a business arrangement. And her life would certainly be comfortable, but the required behavior so rigid that she may as well give up herself. And the explanation would always be awkward, unless she was supposed to tell everyone she's been living with an aunt in Paris or something.

She does not have to be a prostitute to be close to the Ripper murders. She could be server in a tavern. Which would put her out at night alone, and may have even introduced her to some of the victims. She could also live in the same place as Mary Kelly, or at 27 Hanbury. Or she could have worked with charities that would introduce her to the victims. And if there needs to be a final face off with the Ripper, it would not be unheard of for a woman who desperately needs money to go out one time. Or to set out late at night to help a friend, to retrieve a drunk neighbor, or to secretly meet someone at night.

I mean, it's how I would construct it, but then I would be writing it for a play, not a novel. For a play, you need easy explanations or the audience would be there for a day.

[Rosella]

Of course Det. Inpector Robert Sagar of the City Police was a medical student at St Barts before he became a policeman. Medical students often came from middleclass families.

He'd become friendly with a police sergeant at his lodgings, I believe, and helped in some cases as an enthusiastic amateur. He impressed the head of the City Police, (forget his name) and became a detective. He never wore a uniform or went on the beat.

[arialburnz]

Thank you very much for your detailed input, Errata!! Yes, this is definitely a situation of not only a full novel, but a series of six books - this being book 5 ouf of the lot. I love to write in layers and I do have the time and luxury of creating a very diverse backstory and history on each of my characters. However, I probably use about 20% of it in the actual story. Creating a very detailed history on each of my characters give me the foundation to not only give them motivation for their behavior in current circumstances, but also plant little tiny clues here and there about their past so my readers can put all the puzzle pieces together at the end and reach the AHA moment. As a certified hypnotherapist, I take advantage of subconscious suggestions that gel the world building for my readers. I do love a good mystery!!

Your input is very intriguing and valuable!! Thank you so much for your time!!!

[arialburnz]

Of course Det. Inpector Robert Sagar of the City Police was a medical student at St Barts before he became a policeman. Medical students often came from middleclass families.

He'd become friendly with a police sergeant at his lodgings, I believe, and helped in some cases as an enthusiastic amateur. He impressed the head of the City Police, (forget his name) and became a detective. He never wore a uniform or went on the beat.

This was something I did not know, Rosella!! I love this information. Definitely gets my wheels turning for other possibilities!!! Thank you!!!

[GUT]

Of course Det. Inpector Robert Sagar of the City Police was a medical student at St Barts before he became a policeman. Medical students often came from middleclass families.

He'd become friendly with a police sergeant at his lodgings, I believe, and helped in some cases as an enthusiastic amateur. He impressed the head of the City Police, (forget his name) and became a detective. He never wore a uniform or went on the beat.

This was something I did not know, Rosella!! I love this information. Definitely gets my wheels turning for other possibilities!!! Thank you!!!

Bare in mind though Sagar's rank I think you want Ben loewer down the food chain.