Was the Ripper choosing to kill on dates devoted to Patron Saints?

[GUT]

And we don't know that how?

So you admit that we actually have no idea if in that period he went hunting and found no prey?

[Richard Patterson]

So you admit that we actually have no idea if in that period he went hunting and found no prey?

Yes GUT. We actually have no idea if in that period he went hunting and found no prey.

[Ally]

I do realise, and thanks for the link. You should realise, from the 1st post in this thread, that I'm referring to only patron saints and saints that were soldiers and doctors of the church. Not the dozen or so saints that might be on any day.

Oh he's killing on important doctor saints feast day! Of course. How ironic then that he missed the feast day associated with the Main Patron Saint of Doctors, which actually falls right into the autumn kill zone time period.

Do you think he just decided to take the major day devoted to the major Doctor Saint off or did he just have a bad night and give up?

[Sally]

Very well, Richard Patterson, I have now read the very first post in this thread - apologies for my less than thorough approach.

Now - of your four special saints:

St Adrian of Nicomedia 8th August [RC] - plague, epilepsy, arms dealers, butchers, guards, soldiers

St Raymond Nonnatus August 31st - expectant mothers; pregnant women; newborn babies; infants; children; midwives; fever; the falsely accused; confidentiality of confession

St Jerome 30th September - archeologists; archivists; Bible scholars; librarians; libraries; school children; students; translators

St Jerome is a Doctor of the Church – from the Latin docere – to teach. Not, in this case, a medical doctor. Most of the attributes above are modern, obviously - but the list doesn't appear to include doctors. Perhaps you can provide your evidence which will confirm that St Jerome is indeed a patron saint of doctors?

St Theodore of Amasea 9th November - recovery of lost articles, against storms, soldiers.

The Ripper could have had instead:

Midwives –

St Brigid of Kildare – February 1st
St Erasmus [the patron saint of abdominal pains] – June 2nd
St Pantaleon – 27th July
St Margaret of Antioch – July 20th

Soldiers –

St Martin of Tours – November 11th
St Barbara – December 4th

Doctors –

St Panatleon – 27th July
St Damien – 27th September
Raphael [archangel] – 29th September
St Luke [Evangelist] – 18th October
St Foillan – 31st October, 5th November


I'd suggest that if he was looking for a patron saint of soldiers, he missed a trick not going with St Martin, who's pretty much the patron saint of soldiers. Likewise, think what a hit he could have scored by killing on St Pantaleon's feast day, a patron of doctors and midwives.

Ritual can of course be highly individualistic - so I guess there's nothing to prove that Thompson [if a killer] didn't feel some special affinity with the particular saints that you cite [except St Jerome, of course, who might be a bit of an issue]

Unfortunately, that's precisely the problem in determining whether a theory of ritualised selection holds any water. There are, as pointed out above by others, logistical problems with the approach that you suggest. There is also the problem of the underlying assumption that Thompson-as-Ripper, waiting to kill on special Saint's days, was able to control his urge to kill to that extent. He would have to be a highly organised killer for that to work.

[Richard Patterson]

Oh he's killing on important doctor saints feast day! Of course. How ironic then that he missed the feast day associated with the Main Patron Saint of Doctors, which actually falls right into the autumn kill zone time period.

Do you think he just decided to take the major day devoted to the major Doctor Saint off or did he just have a bad night and give up?

Nothing here mitigates the fact four murders in a row match Catholic doctor and soldier saints and the patron saints of the same occupation that the police were seeking, throughout the Ripper crimes, soldiers, butchers, midwives, and doctors because they held knives and by necessity held knowledge of anatomy. If he had missed killing other main patron saints of doctors it does not remove the astronomical 0.000003 chance of it being a random occurrence. Either does your sense of irony or whether there was yet another patron saint of doctors. To diminish this pattern you would have to remove a saint, a victim, or the police. You do understand this? I'm not thinking if he had a bad night etc is relevant to a mathematical calculation... I hate to repeat myself but ---out of the 365 days of the year this we have 15 patron days matching these occupations. This is a 1 in 24 chance that a random day would fall on one of these occupations. The chances that four randomly chosen dates would fall under these occupations is 1 in 331,776. Saints alive! 1+1=2 even if numbers 3, 4 or 5 exist. By the way. We are talking about a case where four women died, not an argument about how long is a piece of string.

[Ally]

Putting up the Saint of Libraries, and oh also, by the by Doctors (although I don't see where Jerome is actually a Saint of Doctors), as evidence that he had some *thing* about Saints associated with Doctors, when there is oneMAIN saint of Doctors, who was not just some random Saint, and also a doctor himself, but one of the Big Four authors of the Gospels and your religious nut somehow skips HIS day??

[Robert]

The only reason I can imagine for a policeman seeking a midwife, would be if his wife was expecting.

[Sally]

Nothing here mitigates the fact four murders in a row match Catholic doctor and soldier saints and the patron saints of the same occupation that the police were seeking, throughout the Ripper crimes, soldiers, butchers, midwives, and doctors

Is St Jerome a patron saint of doctors?? [am I talking to myself here?]

[Ally]

Mere facts will never triumph over the power of belief! Begone with your pesky evidences and facts.

[Richard Patterson]

Very well, Richard Patterson, I have now read the very first post in this thread - apologies for my less than thorough approach.

Now - of your four special saints:

St Adrian of Nicomedia 8th August [RC] - plague, epilepsy, arms dealers, butchers, guards, soldiers

St Raymond Nonnatus August 31st - expectant mothers; pregnant women; newborn babies; infants; children; midwives; fever; the falsely accused; confidentiality of confession

St Jerome 30th September - archeologists; archivists; Bible scholars; librarians; libraries; school children; students; translators

St Jerome is a Doctor of the Church – from the Latin docere – to teach. Not, in this case, a medical doctor. Most of the attributes above are modern, obviously - but the list doesn't appear to include doctors. Perhaps you can provide your evidence which will confirm that St Jerome is indeed a patron saint of doctors?

St Theodore of Amasea 9th November - recovery of lost articles, against storms, soldiers.

The Ripper could have had instead:

Midwives –

St Brigid of Kildare – February 1st
St Erasmus [the patron saint of abdominal pains] – June 2nd
St Pantaleon – 27th July
St Margaret of Antioch – July 20th

Soldiers –

St Martin of Tours – November 11th
St Barbara – December 4th

Doctors –

St Panatleon – 27th July
St Damien – 27th September
Raphael [archangel] – 29th September
St Luke [Evangelist] – 18th October
St Foillan – 31st October, 5th November


I'd suggest that if he was looking for a patron saint of soldiers, he missed a trick not going with St Martin, who's pretty much the patron saint of soldiers. Likewise, think what a hit he could have scored by killing on St Pantaleon's feast day, a patron of doctors and midwives.

Ritual can of course be highly individualistic - so I guess there's nothing to prove that Thompson [if a killer] didn't feel some special affinity with the particular saints that you cite [except St Jerome, of course, who might be a bit of an issue]

Unfortunately, that's precisely the problem in determining whether a theory of ritualised selection holds any water. There are, as pointed out above by others, logistical problems with the approach that you suggest. There is also the problem of the underlying assumption that Thompson-as-Ripper, waiting to kill on special Saint's days, was able to control his urge to kill to that extent. He would have to be a highly organised killer for that to work.

Thanks, but we know that the killer's four consecutive murders were on the dates of doctor saints and patron saints of butchers, soldiers, and midwives. Which are the same occupations that the police suspected because they are known for using knives and skill in anatomy.

The fact that these saints were patron of more than one occupation does exclude the mathematical remoteness 1 in 331,776 of this being mere chance, neither is it excluded simply because the murderer did not kill on further saint days who were also patrons to these occupations. Whatever attributes we might deduce, from these overwhelming odds, to the killer such as whether he was highly organized, also does not refute it.

Regardless of how we use the term, on the date of St Jerome, this doctor of the church, the Ripper claimed a victim while the police suspected a doctor. St Jerome was, as you rightly put it a, doctor of the church, and not a patron saint of doctors. I have been shown to be wrong and I have since revised my assertion, because people make mistakes. Like you did when you made the mistake of wrongly listing Saint Adrian’s date as 8th August, when it is 8th September.

[Richard Patterson]

Putting up the Saint of Libraries, and oh also, by the by Doctors (although I don't see where Jerome is actually a Saint of Doctors), as evidence that he had some *thing* about Saints associated with Doctors, when there is oneMAIN saint of Doctors, who was not just some random Saint, and also a doctor himself, but one of the Big Four authors of the Gospels and your religious nut somehow skips HIS day??

Four consecutive murders with each date falling on a saint affiliated with butchers, doctors. midwives, and butchers, while the police sought these same occupations is a 1 in hundreds of thousands statistical anomaly. He might skip 1 date, he might skip 10 etc...The anomaly remains.

[Ally]

I have been shown to be wrong and I have since revised my assertion, because people make mistakes. Like you did when you made the mistake of wrongly listing Saint Adrian’s date as 8th August, when it is 8th September.

The difference being of course, that her mistaken fact wasn't used to craft and put forth a theory built on that mistaken fact.

Four consecutive murders with each date falling on a saint affiliated with butchers, doctors. midwives, and butchers, while the police sought these same occupations is a 1 in hundreds of thousands statistical anomaly. He might skip 1 date, he might skip 10 etc...The anomaly remains.

Except you just admitted that one of your saints isn't even a saint associated with doctors, so your entire theory falls apart.

So one saint has nothing to do with doctors, and in the same time window, he completely ignores the major saint associated with doctors.

Your "theory" doesn't really hold up.

[Richard Patterson]

The difference being of course, that her mistaken fact wasn't used to craft and put forth a theory built on that mistaken fact.



Except you just admitted that one of your saints isn't even a saint associated with doctors, so your entire theory falls apart.

So one saint has nothing to do with doctors, and in the same time window, he completely ignores the major saint associated with doctors.

Your "theory" doesn't really hold up.

St Jerome as a doctor of the church is by his title associated with doctors. How can you say that he has nothing to do with doctors when he was a doctor?

[Robert]

You might as well say that Andre Previn is linked to buses. because he's a conductor.

[Sally]

Richard,

St Jerome is a doctor of the church yes - excellent, we're making progress!

However [there is always one of those, I'm afraid] the term 'Doctor' in this sense relates to the original meaning of the word, from the Latin 'docere' - to teach.

It refers to a learned man, or woman - not a medical doctor in and of itself. The term as used in respect of medical doctor has evolved as it has because those practicing medicine were learned men [or women]

We still use the term 'doctor' in it's original sense today within academia. My husband, for example, is fond of telling me that he's a 'real' doctor [since an academic doctor and not a medical man]

But I digress. With respect to St Jerome, he's a patron saint of learning - of scholarship, effectively; and a doctor of the Church because he was considered to be a learned man. As Ally suggests, he has nothing to do with medical doctors, knife wielding or otherwise.

I'd say that was a knock on the head for your theory, personally.