Different Killers

[RockySullivan]

Serial killers come from all walks of life. Just because you have someone from a well-to-do background doesn't automatically mean he's too prim and proper to commit these deeds. People are okay with the idea of the Ripper being an upper-class gent slumming it in Whitechapel, why wouldn't the Torso Killer be one?

Well like I've been saying on the necrophile thread, the foreman stated this was someone who knew the vault well or someone who had it described to him. This sounds like the foreman was suspicious of one of the workers. I don't see how an upper class gent could be familiar with crevices in a pitch black vault and frequent the place to bury limbs and dump torsos multiple times.

I understand what your saying and I'm not being classist, it's just the elements of the dump site point away from someone from upper class society. If the torso had been left on the street is agree with you. And yet the dissection/dismemberment could point towards what your theorizing but we also have the claim of animal blood on the newspaper with the torso...so that may point away from a doctor towards someone who works with animals like a butcher or slaughterman

[Harry D]

I also doubt that either was done for any kind of Burke and Hare, profit reason.

Hello, Abby. I didn't mean a 'profit' in the fiscal sense, I meant in the sense of harvesting organs for this Frankenstein monster. If he's kidnapping women and taking them back to his lair for butchering he already has his pick of the lot. Why would he need to go trawling the streets in Whitechapel, attacking women in poorly-lit areas where he could've been easily seen or caught, for the odd snatch n' grab?

[John G]

Well like I've been saying on the necrophile thread, the foreman stated this was someone who knew the vault well or someone who had it described to him. This sounds like the foreman was suspicious of one of the workers. I don't see how an upper class gent could be familiar with crevices in a pitch black vault and frequent the place to bury limbs and dump torsos multiple times.

I understand what your saying and I'm not being classist, it's just the elements of the dump site point away from someone from upper class society. If the torso had been left on the street is agree with you. And yet the dissection/dismemberment could point towards what your theorizing but we also have the claim of animal blood on the newspaper with the torso...so that may point away from a doctor towards someone who works with animals like a butcher or slaughterman

Hello Rocky,

It could be a failed doctor/medical student who's fallen on hard times.

[RockySullivan]

Hello, Abby. I didn't mean a 'profit' in the fiscal sense, I meant in the sense of harvesting organs for this Frankenstein monster. If he's kidnapping women and taking them back to his lair for butchering he already has his pick of the lot. Why would he need to go trawling the streets in Whitechapel, attacking women in poorly-lit areas where he could've been easily seen or caught, for the odd snatch n' grab?

If you look at the timeline, he may not have had a lair from august onwards until 1889. The whitehall torso was badly decomposed, it may have been stored somewhere temporarily but that doesn't mean torso had a place to dismember. it's interesting it includes an august newspaper because torso may have moved on to killing in the streets a la the rippings once he could no longer dismember not resuming dismemberment until the following year with Jackson
.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Harry,

Considering the Thames connection- body parts were found in the Thames and the Scotland Yard building may have been accessed via the river-do you think that the Torso Murderer could have dismembered his victim on a boat which, of course, could also have aided with transport.

Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers

[jerryd]

Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers

Maybe he did grab his victims near the dock. Some of the torso's were never positively identified, i.e Pinchin and Whitehall. Maybe his pals were working the east-end at the same time.

I'll re-post this Ripper Letter only to illustrate my point, not that I'm convinced it is authentic:

Daily News
United Kingdom
5 October 1888

"3 October.
Dear Boss *
Since last, splendid success. Two more and never a squeal. Oh, I am master of the art! I am going to be heavy on the guilded * now, we are. Some dutchess will cut up nicely, and the lace will show nicely. You wonder how. Oh, we are masters. No education like a butcher's. No animal like a nice woman * the fat are best. On to Brighton for a holiday, but we shan't idle * splendid high class women there. My mouth waters * good luck there. If
not, you will hear from me in West end. My pal will keep on at the east a while yet. When I get a nobility * I will send it on to C. Warren, or perhaps to you for a keepsake. O, it is jolly.
George of the High Rip Gang.
Red ink still, but a drop of the real stuff in it."

The nobility comment is interesting. It sounds like the "it" refers to a body or torso. He's admittedly working the west-end, where most of the torso's and parts were discovered. Then he claims his pal will keep on at the east end. This explains the different signatures. Although Pinchin Street torso was a cross between the two; dismemberment of body parts (arms were left attached), abdomen mutilation yet found on the east end.

Notice the end of the letter, blame goes to George of the High Rip gang. I noted the similar blame game in all the graffitti written around town on another thread.

[Errata]

Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers

Plus there's some hilarious physics problems with swinging an axe standing in a tiny row boat... and how weird is it to get into a boat with a perfect stranger? Did that even happen?

[Wickerman]

Plus there's some hilarious physics problems with swinging an axe standing in a tiny row boat... and how weird is it to get into a boat with a perfect stranger? Did that even happen?

So that's how Druitt ended up in the Swanee, his axe went through the bottom of the boat...

[RockySullivan]

Plus there's some hilarious physics problems with swinging an axe standing in a tiny row boat... and how weird is it to get into a boat with a perfect stranger? Did that even happen?

I know you & I have talked about this but since Jackson was sleeping on the embankment maybe it's not a stretch to kill her and get her on to a boat. I believe someone tried to rob Jackson near the thames in the days before her murder maybe it's connected.

[GUT]

So that's how Druitt ended up in the Swanee, his axe went through the bottom of the boat...

Great idea, but was he just collecting stones?

[Rosella]

What if there were a couple of males working in unison, one with a boat, one with access to a cart? Both cart and boat may have had to be used at certain times when the men were working at their everyday jobs.

[John G]

Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers

Hello Michael,

Thanks. Of course there were other differences in MO/ signature. For instance, JtR didn't scatter body parts or use disposal sites- his victims where left where they were killed. I think this was an important component of the Torso killer's signature, i.e. possibly done for the purposes of shock value and in order to taunt the police- the Scotland Yard Torso/ Whitehall Mystery is, of course, also consistent with the latter hypothesis.

Dr Phillips was also asked by the coroner if he thought that the there were similarities between MJK and the Pinchin Street Torso. Although he only had partial notes with him he concluded that the Torso killer had been more deliberate in the cutting up of the body and had shown a greater knowledge and degree of skill, i.e. as regards the separation of the joints. And whereas the mutilations in respect of MJK were "wanton", in the latter case they were probably done for purposes of disposing of the body.

Of course, the first Torso Murders appear to have taken place in Battersea, 1873, and Putney, 1874. Therefore, if this series is connected to JtR then the vast majority of suspects are clearly ruled out on age grounds!

[Busy Beaver]

I am pretty certain that Jack killed six victims- the sixth being Martha Tabrum. The way in which the victims were killed is much the same- throats cut and mutilations, apart from Stride, as I believe the Ripper was disturbed. Because of the varying discrepencies of what the Ripper was wearing when he carried out the crimes as per different descriptions, I think the Ripper was able to change his hat and coat before he carried out each murder.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello again,

Actually a bit surprised my id is still active. I'm glad, because I wanted to add something to this discussion. The disposition of the killer(s) can be partially exposed by examining the types of wounds made. There are only 2 murders within just the Canonical Group that reveal a clinical, calculated disposition. It would seem that at least 1 of these performed actions that most efficiently enabled the ultimate objective. One could not say that in the case of Mary Kelly, for example. Nor is tracing around a navel and severing colon very efficient, although I believe that an argument could be made that Kates kidney, or any internal organ from the female abdomen, was one of a few possible ultimate objectives.

Martha Tabram was killed by someone emotionally responding to the situation, and someone who lacked self control at the time. Liz Strides killer sought to end her life. That seems about the extent of his interests there. I feel that there is an argument that could be used when pairing Polly with Annie, that the extent of the latter injuries was a reflection of the venue and perceived privacy, and that Pollys abdominal injuries indicate a pm focus on that region. But for all intent and purpose, the Victimology, the Methodology and the skills, proclivities and the abilities of the killer were virtually identical.

The Torsos were a randomly occurring event, one that preceded the Fall of Terror, and suggest a killer who took time with his victims the Phantom Menace wouldn't even dream of.

Knives, wounds, street women, time of day...all relevant to the argument as to whether a true series existed there, sure. The commonalities are not sufficient by themselves to suggest pattern. Considering these were ghetto conditions with an abundance of ready prey on the streets all night, "Ripper" murders were almost predictable.